I thought that, for triggers with a target, that target must be declared at the time that the trigger is put on the stack. For example, my end step begins and my Meren of Clan Nel Toth triggers. I pick the card desired from the graveyard at the time that the trigger goes on the stack. This is all correct, right?
Assuming I have that much correct, my confusion comes from a scenario most easily described by example. I cast Tooth and Nail entwined for a big beatstick creature and Eternal Witness. Both creatures come into play. Eternal Witness's ETB trigger triggers and goes on the stack.
If a target must be picked at the time of triggering, Tooth and Nail is not a legal target as it is still on the stack.
However, I KNOW that in this scenario, you can get Tooth and Nail back with Eternal Witness.
Why does this Eternal Witness trigger not need to pick a target at the time of triggering?
The knowledge that you're missing is that a triggered ability is not necessarily put on the stack at the time it triggers. Sometimes it has to wait, because a triggered ability can only be put on the stack when a player would get priority. So if the trigger event is during the resolution of a spell or ability, yes the ability triggers, but it's not put on the stack yet. In your example, Witness' ability is thus put on the stack after Tooth and Nail is finished resolving, and only then you pick the trigger's target.
116.2a. Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.") However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasn't yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 116.5.
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, "State-Based Actions"), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.
603.3d. The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2c-d. If a choice is required when the triggered ability goes on the stack but no legal choices can be made for it, or if a rule or a continuous effect otherwise makes the ability illegal, the ability is simply removed from the stack.
601.2c. The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires[...]
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
for triggers with a target, that target must be declared at the time that the trigger is put on the stack.
If a target must be picked at the time of triggering,
Well, those are not the same thing. You're failing to see the difference between the moment the ability triggers and the moment the ability goes to the stack.
You choose targets while you're putting the ability on the stack, not when the event that caused it to trigger happened.
Players put their triggered abilities on the stack only before a player would receive priority. That happens after a spell has finished resolving completely. So, those are the events when entwined Tooth and Nail is resolving:
* You search your library for Eternal Witness and some other creature, reveal them, and put them on your hand.
* You shuffle your library.
* You put Eternal Witness and some other creature on the battlefield. *Technically, Eternal Witness's ability triggers at this point, but for now it just waits to the go to the stack.*
* Tooth and Nail has finished resolving and goes to the stack.
* State-based actions are performed, if needed. (for example, if the other creature was legendary and you already had another copy on the field, you handle the legend rule at this point)
* You put Eternal Witness's trigger on the stack. You choose Tooth and Nail as its target.
* Active player (you?) gains priority.
target must be declared at the time that the trigger is put on the stack
This is correct.
If a target must be picked at the time of triggering
This is not.
Triggered abilities aren't added to the stack until the next times SBAs are checked (technically just before SBAs, but for 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter).
So by the time Witness' ETB goes on the stack, T&N is in the graveyard and is a legal target.
Triggered abilities aren't added to the stack until the next times SBAs are checked (technically just before SBAs, but for 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter).
Not quite. Triggered abilities are put onto the stack just before a player would get priority. SBAs are checked also just before a player would get priority. However, the SBA check comes first.*
This would be relevant to the original scenario if the player was being affected by, say, Curse of Death's Hold. The Eternal Witness would enter the battlefield as a 1/0 creature and die when SBAs were checked. Since this happens before the trigger goes onto the stack, you could have Witness' trigger target Witness itself.
*Actually, SBAs are checked before *and* after triggered abilities go onto the stack, but I can't think of any situations where the post-trigger check would be relevant.
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, “State-Based Actions”), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities”). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.
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Assuming I have that much correct, my confusion comes from a scenario most easily described by example. I cast Tooth and Nail entwined for a big beatstick creature and Eternal Witness. Both creatures come into play. Eternal Witness's ETB trigger triggers and goes on the stack.
If a target must be picked at the time of triggering, Tooth and Nail is not a legal target as it is still on the stack.
However, I KNOW that in this scenario, you can get Tooth and Nail back with Eternal Witness.
Why does this Eternal Witness trigger not need to pick a target at the time of triggering?
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Well, those are not the same thing. You're failing to see the difference between the moment the ability triggers and the moment the ability goes to the stack.
You choose targets while you're putting the ability on the stack, not when the event that caused it to trigger happened.
Players put their triggered abilities on the stack only before a player would receive priority. That happens after a spell has finished resolving completely. So, those are the events when entwined Tooth and Nail is resolving:
* You search your library for Eternal Witness and some other creature, reveal them, and put them on your hand.
* You shuffle your library.
* You put Eternal Witness and some other creature on the battlefield. *Technically, Eternal Witness's ability triggers at this point, but for now it just waits to the go to the stack.*
* Tooth and Nail has finished resolving and goes to the stack.
* State-based actions are performed, if needed. (for example, if the other creature was legendary and you already had another copy on the field, you handle the legend rule at this point)
* You put Eternal Witness's trigger on the stack. You choose Tooth and Nail as its target.
* Active player (you?) gains priority.
This is correct.
This is not.
Triggered abilities aren't added to the stack until the next times SBAs are checked (technically just before SBAs, but for 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter).
So by the time Witness' ETB goes on the stack, T&N is in the graveyard and is a legal target.
This would be relevant to the original scenario if the player was being affected by, say, Curse of Death's Hold. The Eternal Witness would enter the battlefield as a 1/0 creature and die when SBAs were checked. Since this happens before the trigger goes onto the stack, you could have Witness' trigger target Witness itself.
*Actually, SBAs are checked before *and* after triggered abilities go onto the stack, but I can't think of any situations where the post-trigger check would be relevant.