What difference is at hand when Kozilek, the Great Distortion's triggered ETB ability checks twice, once when you cast it, and again when it resolves to determine how many cards you draw, versus something like Sliver Hive whose activation ability only checks once to see if you control a sliver when you put its activation ability on the stack but not when it resolves (you'll still get the sliver token if you didn't control a sliver when it resolves)?
I'm failing to see a difference between the two, and was hoping someone here can clear it up for me.
How detailed an answer are you looking for?
The basic answer is that different rules of the game handle those abilities differetly, in part because of what kind of abilities they are and in part because of how they are worded.
Kozilek's ability has what's called an "intervening if" clause, which is a property only triggered abilities have. When an ability is worded as "When/whenever/at (event), if (condition), effect" the game checks for whether the condition is true both when it determines whether to trigger and a second time when the trigger resolves.
Sliver Hive has an activated ability. It imposes an activation restriction but doesn't check again because it doesn't say it does. It would check twice if the ability said "If you control a Sliver, put a 1/1 colorless Sliver creature token onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if you control a Sliver." But that's not how it's worded.
Side note: Kozilek's ability triggers when it is cast, not when it enters the battlefield. This matters if, for example, another player counters Kozilek, or if Kozilek manages to enter the battlefield via some means other than being cast.
Kozilek, the Great Distortion does not have an ETB effect. The check on your hand pertains at the trigger when cast and is resolved prior to Kozilek entering the battlefield. There is no second check on the draw ability.
Stack: (on kozilek cast)
Cast Kozilek >> Cast trigger activated (draw up to 7 in hand);
Cast trigger (draw up to 7) resolves >> Kozilek resolves >> Kozilek enters the battlefield: kozilek has no etb effect; static board
Kozilek, the Great Distortion does not have an ETB effect. The check on your hand pertains at the trigger when cast and is resolved prior to Kozilek entering the battlefield. There is no second check on the draw ability.
Stack: (on kozilek cast)
Cast Kozilek >> Cast trigger activated (draw up to 7 in hand);
Cast trigger (draw up to 7) resolves >> Kozilek resolves >> Kozilek enters the battlefield: kozilek has no etb effect; static board
There is a second check on the triggered ability, when the ability resolves. Because of the wording, (see artscrafters post which explains it very well),the ability checks whether you have fewer than seven cards in your hand when you cast kozilek, and is only put on the stack if you have fewer than seven cards. Then when the trigger resolves it looks again if you have fewer than seven cards in hand, and if you don't it does not resolve. So the ability checks twice.
for example, if you cast kozilek with 7 cards in hand, then discard a card while kozilek is on the stack, you won't draw a card because the ability didn't trigger (failed first check)
if you cast kozilek with 6 cards in hand, then in response to the trigger cast inspiration you won't draw a card because you no longer have fewer than 7 cards (failed second check)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you knew anything about the lore you'd see that they were clearly hinting that the madness on Innistrad was caused by Uncle Istvan wearing Urza's Power Armor ... tainted with Phrexyian Oil"
Graham from Loading Ready Run
How detailed an answer are you looking for?
The basic answer is that different rules of the game handle those abilities differetly, in part because of what kind of abilities they are and in part because of how they are worded.
Kozilek's ability has what's called an "intervening if" clause, which is a property only triggered abilities have. When an ability is worded as "When/whenever/at (event), if (condition), effect" the game checks for whether the condition is true both when it determines whether to trigger and a second time when the trigger resolves.
Sliver Hive has an activated ability. It imposes an activation restriction but doesn't check again because it doesn't say it does. It would check twice if the ability said "If you control a Sliver, put a 1/1 colorless Sliver creature token onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if you control a Sliver." But that's not how it's worded.
Side note: Kozilek's ability triggers when it is cast, not when it enters the battlefield. This matters if, for example, another player counters Kozilek, or if Kozilek manages to enter the battlefield via some means other than being cast.
Still kinda confused. I've seen replacement effects that use "if" for an intervening clause. So it basically comes down to one is a triggered event and and the other is an activated effect, but also how they are worded? Interesting.
It really just comes down to this: Kozilek has a triggered ability with an intervening-if clause and Sliver Hive does not. Intervening-if clauses only exist for triggered abilities, and they have special rules:
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When
the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers
only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it
resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does
nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening
‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a
card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Still kinda confused. I've seen replacement effects that use "if" for an intervening clause. So it basically comes down to one is a triggered event and and the other is an activated effect, but also how they are worded? Interesting.
The word "if" doesn't have any inherent rules meaning on its own. However, there are a few key types of phrases that use the word "if" which do have specific rules meaning.
1. Triggered abilities with intervening-if clauses use the structure "When/Whenever/At (triggering event), if (condition), (effect)." These check the condition both when determining whether to trigger and when the ability resolves.
2. One of the standard phrase structures for replacement effects is "If (event) would (happen), (modified event happens) instead." (Example: Rhox Faithmender)
3. The rest of the time, "if" just has its usual English meaning, indicating that something is conditional. Most commonly this describes either a restriction for casting a spell or activating an ability, or something that is checked at the relevant time, usually when a spell or ability resolves. Sliver Hive is an example of the former; Abzan Beastmaster is an example of the latter. (Note that while this is a triggered ability, it doesn't follow the exact phrase structure of an intervening if clause, so this one only checks its condition during resolution.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm failing to see a difference between the two, and was hoping someone here can clear it up for me.
The basic answer is that different rules of the game handle those abilities differetly, in part because of what kind of abilities they are and in part because of how they are worded.
Kozilek's ability has what's called an "intervening if" clause, which is a property only triggered abilities have. When an ability is worded as "When/whenever/at (event), if (condition), effect" the game checks for whether the condition is true both when it determines whether to trigger and a second time when the trigger resolves.
Sliver Hive has an activated ability. It imposes an activation restriction but doesn't check again because it doesn't say it does. It would check twice if the ability said "If you control a Sliver, put a 1/1 colorless Sliver creature token onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if you control a Sliver." But that's not how it's worded.
Side note: Kozilek's ability triggers when it is cast, not when it enters the battlefield. This matters if, for example, another player counters Kozilek, or if Kozilek manages to enter the battlefield via some means other than being cast.
Stack: (on kozilek cast)
Cast Kozilek >> Cast trigger activated (draw up to 7 in hand);
Cast trigger (draw up to 7) resolves >> Kozilek resolves >> Kozilek enters the battlefield: kozilek has no etb effect; static board
There is a second check on the triggered ability, when the ability resolves. Because of the wording, (see artscrafters post which explains it very well),the ability checks whether you have fewer than seven cards in your hand when you cast kozilek, and is only put on the stack if you have fewer than seven cards. Then when the trigger resolves it looks again if you have fewer than seven cards in hand, and if you don't it does not resolve. So the ability checks twice.
for example, if you cast kozilek with 7 cards in hand, then discard a card while kozilek is on the stack, you won't draw a card because the ability didn't trigger (failed first check)
if you cast kozilek with 6 cards in hand, then in response to the trigger cast inspiration you won't draw a card because you no longer have fewer than 7 cards (failed second check)
Graham from Loading Ready Run
Still kinda confused. I've seen replacement effects that use "if" for an intervening clause. So it basically comes down to one is a triggered event and and the other is an activated effect, but also how they are worded? Interesting.
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When
the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers
only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it
resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does
nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening
‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a
card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
We might help clarify.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
1. Triggered abilities with intervening-if clauses use the structure "When/Whenever/At (triggering event), if (condition), (effect)." These check the condition both when determining whether to trigger and when the ability resolves.
2. One of the standard phrase structures for replacement effects is "If (event) would (happen), (modified event happens) instead." (Example: Rhox Faithmender)
3. The rest of the time, "if" just has its usual English meaning, indicating that something is conditional. Most commonly this describes either a restriction for casting a spell or activating an ability, or something that is checked at the relevant time, usually when a spell or ability resolves. Sliver Hive is an example of the former; Abzan Beastmaster is an example of the latter. (Note that while this is a triggered ability, it doesn't follow the exact phrase structure of an intervening if clause, so this one only checks its condition during resolution.)