Can you turn up a manifested creature for its morph cost? eg. Gathan Raiders
Sure. Morph doesn't care that a face-down permanent was manifested, only that it's face-down. You can certainly pay a face-down permanent's morph cost to turn it face-up even if it's manifested.
Yeah, it's basically like Past in Flames with Increasing Vengeance. IV has a flashback cost, and PiF adds a second flashback cost, and you can pay either one.
3) Turn all your cards face up (Since they're all currently face down 2/2 artifact creatures, it should work unless there's a "SCREW YOU MELVIN!" clause that I'm not aware of).
3) Turn all your cards face up (Since they're all currently face down 2/2 artifact creatures, it should work unless there's a "SCREW YOU MELVIN!" clause that I'm not aware of).
4) Wait for the copy effect to end.
5) Profit.
This won't work.
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So if a manifested instant becomes a copy of a morph creature, can it be turned face up? If so, if the copying is only until end of turn, what would happen at end of turn?
No. Just look at the card. If it’s an instant, it can’t turn face up.
Suppose I have Opalescence on the battlefield, and I manifest a Whip of Erebos. Can I turn it face up for its mana cost? It's not really clear whether the reminder text refers to "creature card" as "creature if it would be face up" or "creature card if its Oracle entry were to be looked up" (the second of which applies to "name a <type> card" effects).
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Suppose I have Opalescence on the battlefield, and I manifest a Whip of Erebos. Can I turn it face up for its mana cost? It's not really clear whether the reminder text refers to "creature card" as "creature if it would be face up" or "creature card if its Oracle entry were to be looked up" (the second of which applies to "name a <type> card" effects).
The latter. You ignore all continuous effects to determine if you could turn it face up using manifest.
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You can only turn a creature card (ignoring all continuous effects) face up using manifest.
Does it mean that even though the permanent is a copy of something else, it still retains its "card type" (in this case eg. an instant) and therefore can't be turned face up, even though the copy effect is saying it's a creature? Which rule is this interpretation based on?
The rules for manifest and any accompanying changes to other rules haven't been released yet, so your concern that the Magic rules manager's answer isn't founded in the rules is not particularly meaningful. According to the current rules, "manifest" is a meaningless word. And no, the answer doesn't mean anything other than what it says.
The reason is pretty simple. They don't want instants or sorceries on the battlefield. If you could get around that by using a continuous effect with a duration (e.g. Mirrorweave), you could end up creating that scenario (as has already been attempted in this thread). That leads to the solution they've come up with, which is to ignore continuous effects to determine if you can turn it face up with manifest. Why do this for all cards and not just instants/sorceries? For consistency.
"711.5. A double-faced card enters the battlefield with its front face up unless a spell or ability puts it onto the battlefield “transformed,” in which case it enters the battlefield with its back face up."
Manifest doesn't use the word "transformed"
Does that make a difference? Is this something that we'll have to wait for the FAQ to clarify?
It does make a difference. Under the current rules (which may be changed by the time the set is released) say that the card would instead enter the battlefield face-up. Weirdly though, because the wording on manifest, it will still be a 2/2.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
If you manifest a creature with X in its mana cost, will the turning cost be the mana cost with X=0?
Is turning the manifested permanent face up still a special action like normal morph, or is it an effect that allows you to turn it face up?
As an example of this, suppose you control Doubling Season and you manifest a Hooded Hydra. If you now turn it face up using the manifest thingie, will it have five or ten +1/+1 counters? (If you turn it face up with its normal morph cost, it will only have five...)
Manifest, like morph, is a special action, so you still only get 5 +1/+1 counters.
I am pretty sure X=0 for manifested creatures with X in their mana cost always. Even if you were able to set X to something else, it wouldn't do anything as it's not entering the battlefield.
Did I miss something here? Wouldn't the Hydra have 0 counters (and die) since it didn't just enter the battlefield?
If an effect tries to transform a face-down double-faced card, does it transform it?
Barring some upcoming changes in the rules, if I interpret the rules about transform (ie. 701.25) correctly, that would indeed be the case. The permanent would naturally still be in its face-down state (and thus a 2/2 creature with no other characteristics), but it will be transformed (which means that its morph cost defined by manifest will be the mana cost of the transformed side, and when it turns face up it will be on its transformed side). Is this indeed the case?
I think this is something that we're going to have to wait for the CR update to be clear on. Obviously, there's going to be some changes to the DFC rules. As of now, this concept doesn't play nicely with the current rules. How is your opponent supposed to verify that you're transforming a DFC? Do you reveal it? Additionally, the night side of a DFC has no mana cost, and thus could not be turned face up via manifest's ability. Also keep in mind that face down permanents have no abilities or creature types. Thus, the only way I can even think of that this would be a possibility is turning the face down permanent into a Human somehow and following that up with Moonmist.
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Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
If an effect tries to transform a face-down double-faced card, does it transform it?
Barring some upcoming changes in the rules, if I interpret the rules about transform (ie. 701.25) correctly, that would indeed be the case. The permanent would naturally still be in its face-down state (and thus a 2/2 creature with no other characteristics), but it will be transformed (which means that its morph cost defined by manifest will be the mana cost of the transformed side, and when it turns face up it will be on its transformed side). Is this indeed the case?
What people don't seem to get is that double-faced cards have two faces. The cards have to have a back to be playable in a deck, which is why the place-holder cards were created (for those who don't use opaque sleeves). Whether you use the place-holder or a sleeve to give the card a back, that back will probably be what's up when you manafest it; that is, exactly the same orientation the card is as it sits in your library. Face down should mean all faces down. If you were at a sanctioned tournament and at any point, the top card of your library did not have the same back as the rest of your cards, but showed a Ravager of the Fells, you would face some kind of sanction from a judge. Manifesting a card shouldn't let you change the orientation of that card, other than to look at it yourself. When you turn it face up, then it would be the front face, not the back face.
Lets use Huntmaster as an example. If Huntmaster of the Fells is on top of your library, you should not be able to see Ravager of the Fells, but either the back of a place-holder card or the back of an opaque sleeve. When you manifest the Huntmaster, it does not reveal any information about that card, aside from the fact that you can look at face-down cards you control. Revealing Ravager as it enters the battlefield is revealing a face, which you cannot do without paying the creatures mana cost, which Ravager does not have (aside: it may have a CMC of 0, but there are no mana cost symbols in the top right corner, which is why you cant cast Ravager from your hand, only Huntmaster; so the turn face up cost can't be paid either). If it has no cost, you can not pay it, so you can't turn the Ravager face up. Huntmaster has a mana cost, so you can pay that and turn the Huntmaster face up. When it enters the battlefield, the top of the card should be whatever the top of the card was as it was in your library, either the back of a sleeve or the back of a place-holder, and it will be a 2/2 manifest creature.
At least, that's how I understand it.
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If an effect tries to transform a face-down double-faced card, does it transform it?
Barring some upcoming changes in the rules, if I interpret the rules about transform (ie. 701.25) correctly, that would indeed be the case. The permanent would naturally still be in its face-down state (and thus a 2/2 creature with no other characteristics), but it will be transformed (which means that its morph cost defined by manifest will be the mana cost of the transformed side, and when it turns face up it will be on its transformed side). Is this indeed the case?
Actually, Tabak answered this question on his Tumblr page too.
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If I have a manifested DFC and a Xenograft naming Human, and I cast Moonmist, which reads in part "Transform all humans", will the DFC be transformed when it is turned face up?
And what about a manifested god, for example Thassa, God of the Sea?
Regarding to the FAQs (9/15/2013: The type-changing ability that can make the God not be a creature functions only on the battlefield. It’s always a creature card in other zones, regardless of your devotion to its color.
) i think it will be not possible to flip it, unless your devotion to blue is less than 5
You can turn it face up for its mana cost. For one, you ignore all continuous effects to determine if you can do this, and they are creature cards. For another, the type-changing ability doesn't function while the card is face down because it (the face-down creature permanent on the battlefield) doesn't have that ability.
I have a question wich i cannot find anywhere; does manifest cause ETB triggers?
Like when i manifest nekrataal do i get to kill a creature?
The creature enters the battlefield face down, so it doesn't have any abilities at the time ETBs would trigger. If Nekrataal gets manifested then nothing really happens when it enters. Also, turning a manifest creature face up doesn't trigger ETBs either. It was already on the battlefield, just with different characteristics. It's not entering again.
If I have a manifested DFC and a Xenograft naming Human, and I cast Moonmist, which reads in part "Transform all humans", will the DFC be transformed when it is turned face up?
No.
Is this yet again something that will be added to the rules, or can that response be argued from the current rules? Because I don't see any reason for the answer. Does being face down stop the permanent from being double-faced? If not, then on what basis does it stop transformations?
Why would Moonmist transform something that a) is not a human and b) does not have the ability to transform?
What happens if a manifested card is bounced?
Do you need to reveal it?
Does the answer change if it has morph, since you must reveal morphs when the leave the battlefield?
That assumes of course that you didn't play it for the morph cost.
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Why would Moonmist transform something that a) is not a human and b) does not have the ability to transform?
Because Xenograft makes it a Human, and being a double-faced cards means, according to the rules of the game, that it can be transformed.
Btw, why haven't all these questions been figured out long time ago given that, as I said in my earlier post, Illusionary Mask already produces a similar situation to Manifest?
We can't use the current CR for the game, since the current CR assumes that double-faced permanents always have the "face-up" status, which is obviously not true anymore. Using an old CR's rules entries to try to answer a question about a situation that can only arise with the new set is a bad idea.
The problem never came up with Illusionary Mask, since as of this post, you can't cast DFC's face-down. You can certainly choose a DFC to cast face-down, but the actual instruction of casting it will be ignored.
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I asked about Manifest + Tribute creatures somewhere earlier this week but I can't remember where so...
What abilities, if any, trigger when a manifest card with Tribute is turned face-up via paying it's CMC?
Nothing special happens. It's not entering the battlefield, so no tribute choice is made (which isn't a trigger) and no trigger happens because they're all enters-the-battlefield triggers.
(Also, you don't pay the CMC, "converted mana cost", which is a number, but rather the mana cost.)
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2) Cast Mirrorweave on your Proteus Machine.
3) Turn all your cards face up (Since they're all currently face down 2/2 artifact creatures, it should work unless there's a "SCREW YOU MELVIN!" clause that I'm not aware of).
4) Wait for the copy effect to end.
5) Profit.
This won't work.
http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/106559625064/so-if-a-manifested-instant-becomes-a-copy-of-a
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The latter. You ignore all continuous effects to determine if you could turn it face up using manifest.
http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/106538045149/if-i-manifest-an-instant-or-sorcery-but-due-to
(The question is about an instant/sorcery, but the answer is stated generally.)
The rules for manifest and any accompanying changes to other rules haven't been released yet, so your concern that the Magic rules manager's answer isn't founded in the rules is not particularly meaningful. According to the current rules, "manifest" is a meaningless word. And no, the answer doesn't mean anything other than what it says.
The reason is pretty simple. They don't want instants or sorceries on the battlefield. If you could get around that by using a continuous effect with a duration (e.g. Mirrorweave), you could end up creating that scenario (as has already been attempted in this thread). That leads to the solution they've come up with, which is to ignore continuous effects to determine if you can turn it face up with manifest. Why do this for all cards and not just instants/sorceries? For consistency.
It does make a difference. Under the current rules (which may be changed by the time the set is released) say that the card would instead enter the battlefield face-up. Weirdly though, because the wording on manifest, it will still be a 2/2.
Did I miss something here? Wouldn't the Hydra have 0 counters (and die) since it didn't just enter the battlefield?EDIT: Forgot it has morph. Never mind.
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Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
What people don't seem to get is that double-faced cards have two faces. The cards have to have a back to be playable in a deck, which is why the place-holder cards were created (for those who don't use opaque sleeves). Whether you use the place-holder or a sleeve to give the card a back, that back will probably be what's up when you manafest it; that is, exactly the same orientation the card is as it sits in your library. Face down should mean all faces down. If you were at a sanctioned tournament and at any point, the top card of your library did not have the same back as the rest of your cards, but showed a Ravager of the Fells, you would face some kind of sanction from a judge. Manifesting a card shouldn't let you change the orientation of that card, other than to look at it yourself. When you turn it face up, then it would be the front face, not the back face.
Lets use Huntmaster as an example. If Huntmaster of the Fells is on top of your library, you should not be able to see Ravager of the Fells, but either the back of a place-holder card or the back of an opaque sleeve. When you manifest the Huntmaster, it does not reveal any information about that card, aside from the fact that you can look at face-down cards you control. Revealing Ravager as it enters the battlefield is revealing a face, which you cannot do without paying the creatures mana cost, which Ravager does not have (aside: it may have a CMC of 0, but there are no mana cost symbols in the top right corner, which is why you cant cast Ravager from your hand, only Huntmaster; so the turn face up cost can't be paid either). If it has no cost, you can not pay it, so you can't turn the Ravager face up. Huntmaster has a mana cost, so you can pay that and turn the Huntmaster face up. When it enters the battlefield, the top of the card should be whatever the top of the card was as it was in your library, either the back of a sleeve or the back of a place-holder, and it will be a 2/2 manifest creature.
At least, that's how I understand it.
Actually, Tabak answered this question on his Tumblr page too.
http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/106937606014/if-i-have-a-manifested-dfc-and-a-xenograft-naming
You can turn it face up for its mana cost. For one, you ignore all continuous effects to determine if you can do this, and they are creature cards. For another, the type-changing ability doesn't function while the card is face down because it (the face-down creature permanent on the battlefield) doesn't have that ability.
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Why would Moonmist transform something that a) is not a human and b) does not have the ability to transform?
It goes onto the battlefield face-down. You can't turn it face up using manifest.
It makes them 2/2 creatures.
Yes.
You can always look at face down objects you control, unless otherwise specified.
What happens if a manifested card is bounced?
Do you need to reveal it?
Does the answer change if it has morph, since you must reveal morphs when the leave the battlefield?
That assumes of course that you didn't play it for the morph cost.
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Yes. Tabak answered this question on his Tumblr page too.
http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/106548783814/this-question-is-from-andytheguitarist-on-maros
We can't use the current CR for the game, since the current CR assumes that double-faced permanents always have the "face-up" status, which is obviously not true anymore. Using an old CR's rules entries to try to answer a question about a situation that can only arise with the new set is a bad idea.
The problem never came up with Illusionary Mask, since as of this post, you can't cast DFC's face-down. You can certainly choose a DFC to cast face-down, but the actual instruction of casting it will be ignored.
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What abilities, if any, trigger when a manifest card with Tribute is turned face-up via paying it's CMC?
Nothing special happens. It's not entering the battlefield, so no tribute choice is made (which isn't a trigger) and no trigger happens because they're all enters-the-battlefield triggers.
(Also, you don't pay the CMC, "converted mana cost", which is a number, but rather the mana cost.)
Edit: Example of a tribute card: Nessian Demolok