What exactly does this card affect when you attach it to a permanent? When put on a planeswalker, does it still have it's loyalty abilities? I know it'll still keep its loyalty counters.
When put on a enchantment with a global effect, like Honor of the Pure, does that effect still happen? What about triggered abilities like Test of Endurance?
Just not sure if Song of the Dryads adds "Land - Forest" to the typeline or overwrites it. It also doesn't specify if the card it's enchanting loses its abilities.
The card loses all of its abilities from its own text, and has only the mana ability related to the Forest basic land type (tap to add green mana). Abilities gained by other sources (if still valid) still exist.
The card also loses all other types (such as creature, planeswalker, enchantment) and subtypes (such as Elf, Venser or Aura). Supertypes (legendary, snow, etc) are kept.
205.1a. Some effects set an object's card type. In such cases, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types. Counters, effects, and damage marked on the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new card type. Similarly, when an effect sets one or more of an object's subtypes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). If an object's card type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that card type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a card type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object's card type is removed. Removing an object's subtype doesn't affect its card types at all.
^
This rule talks about losing the types.
305.7. If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copy effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land's subtype doesn't add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
^
This one talks about losing the abilities. It is specifically because of the basic land type 'Forest' on the effect.
====
So:
* The planeswalker will lose its loyalty abilities.
* Honor of the Pure will lose its static ability.
* Test of Endurance will lose its triggered ability.
I wasn't sure how much rules baggage came with this card, so I'm thankful that the only thing you really have to remember or know about this card is what's essentially printed on Song of the Dryads to begin with.
The card loses all of its abilities from its own text, and has only the mana ability related to the Forest basic land type (tap to add green mana). Abilities gained by other sources (if still valid) still exist.
The card also loses all other types (such as creature, planeswalker, enchantment) and subtypes (such as Elf, Venser or Aura). Supertypes (legendary, snow, etc) are kept.
Just want to double-check something quickly and confirm my suspicions.
If the permanent being enchanted with SotD is legendary as the result of leyline of singularity, it can/will lose that supertype as well once the aura is attached and SBAs are checked since it's no longer a non-land, correct?
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
Just want to double-check something quickly and confirm my suspicions.
If the permanent being enchanted with SotD is legendary as the result of leyline of singularity, it can/will lose that supertype as well once the aura is attached and SBAs are checked since it's no longer a non-land, correct?
It won't be legendary but not because of any SBA check.
The things that affect the order in which effects are applied within a layer in the layer system are timestamps and dependencies. Effects are applied in timestamp order, but an effect won't be applied if it's dependent on an effect that hasn't been applied yet (again, within the same layer).
Leyline of Singularity is dependent on the Song because the latter changes the set of objects to which the former applies (in this scenario). Therefore the former is applied after the latter and the permanent with the Song attached isn't legendary.
There's no state-based action; there's just a different result of applying the continuous effects. The permanent is no longer legendary in this scenario as soon as the Song becomes attached to it, due to the dependency causing Song to apply before the Leyline.
Cool. I had to read your explanation more than once before my brain could fully process it, but now I've got it
Admittedly, the subtleties of the layer system is one area of the game which I've never been especially good at, so thanks for clarifying!
One additional question on the topic if I may...
Is there any particular reason why some cards specifically spell out "and loses all abilities" (ie: lignify) or "it loses all other abilities, card types, and creature types." (ie: darksteel mutation) (in their original printings, or their oracle texts in the case of these two particular cards), and others like this one don't? I'm just curious to know if there's any reason from a rules or functionality perspective why some cards (still) have that seemingly redundant stipulation (in their oracle texts) and other omit such "loses other/all abilities" text altogether if it's apparently not necessary when cards like this will completely overwrite and replace other cards' texts, types, and/or abilities. Thanks again.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
205.1a Some effects set an object's card type. In such cases, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types. Counters, effects, and damage marked on the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new card type. Similarly, when an effect sets one or more of an object's subtypes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). If an object's card type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that card type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a card type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object's card type is removed. Removing an object's subtype doesn't affect its card types at all.
305.7. If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land's subtype doesn't add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
Being set to a land removes all other card-types(and all non-land sub-types) and being set to a forest overrides all abilities and land sub-types
Now I feel compelled to ask this final question...
What if there is no timestamp order where multiple "being set to a basic land" changing effects within the same layer enter/enchant simultaneously? For example, say in some highly unlikely scenario a show and tell resolves, and both song of the dryads and spreading seas enter enchanting the same land? Is is safe to assume the timestamp is then based on APNAP to determine if the land is an island or a forest? What if the land being enchanted also happens to be non-basic, and a third player brings blood moon onto the battlefield off the S&T?
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
613.6g If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a
zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their
timestamp order at that time.
Now I feel compelled to ask this final question...
What if there is no timestamp order where multiple "being set to a basic land" changing effects within the same layer enter/enchant simultaneously? For example, say in some highly unlikely scenario a show and tell resolves, and both song of the dryads and spreading seas enter enchanting the same land? Is is safe to assume the timestamp is then based on APNAP to determine if the land is an island or a forest? What if the land being enchanted also happens to be non-basic, and a third player brings blood moon onto the battlefield off the S&T?
Had to look it up myself, the active player gets to determine their timestamp order.
Quote from Comp Rules »
613.6g If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at that time.
What if there is no timestamp order where multiple "being set to a basic land" changing effects within the same layer enter/enchant simultaneously? For example, say in some highly unlikely scenario a show and tell resolves, and both song of the dryads and spreading seas enter enchanting the same land? Is is safe to assume the timestamp is then based on APNAP to determine if the land is an island or a forest? What if the land being enchanted also happens to be non-basic, and a third player brings blood moon onto the battlefield off the S&T?
Although slightly off topic and may not have been the original intent of the wording here, if a permanent that isn't a basic land becomes enchanted by Song of the Dryads, it will simply read as follows. I'll use a popular commander as an example.
Maelstrom Wanderer - 5URG
Legendary Creature - Elemental
Creatures you control have haste.
Cascade, Cascade
7/5
Maelstrom Wanderer - 5URG
Legendary Land - Forest (Tap: Add G to your mana pool. Maelstrom Wanderer is colorless.) <-- Reminder text
As you'll notice, Song of the Dryads does not turn the permanent into a basic land, it just makes it a land with a basic land type. This means, like Sheldon Menery pointed out in a StarCityGames article today, hearing the words "Wasteland your commander" will sound weird, but be perfectly legal since it's not a basic land, just like Dryad Arbor is also not a basic land but can be targeted by Wasteland even though it has the "Forest" basic land type.
You don't need to play song of the dryads on the 2nd one to force him to choose one and bin the other. He will be forced to choose one the moment SBA actions are checked once the 2nd enters, as they both still are legendary and have the same name.
As soon as the other one resolves one would need to be sacrificed. They both are legendary permanents with the name Maelstrom Wandered and the legend rule only look at the name and if it's legendary.
704.5k If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "legend rule".
EDIT: Gah, left the tabs open for too long without refreshing. What Rafig said.
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As soon as the other one resolves one would need to be sacrificed.
Note that the legendary rule doesn't cause permanents to be sacrificed. This makes a difference with cards like It That Betrays.
Not only did I write too late. I wrote it too fast aswell Put into graveyard it is! Could be interesting with Assault Suit otherwise. A miniature Mirror Gallery
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First off this should have been a new thread. This thread is a month old, let it rest.
To answer your question, the copy would be a normal maelstrom wanderer, with the exception of having the thespian stage copy ability, and not be a land. If the two wanderers are controlled by the same player then that player will have to put one of them in the graveyard.
Copy effects copy what is on the card, and ignore other effects being applied to it with the exception of other copy effects. Song of the Dryads does not have a copy effect so it's effects are ignored when the object it's enchanting is copied.
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When put on a enchantment with a global effect, like Honor of the Pure, does that effect still happen? What about triggered abilities like Test of Endurance?
Just not sure if Song of the Dryads adds "Land - Forest" to the typeline or overwrites it. It also doesn't specify if the card it's enchanting loses its abilities.
The card loses all of its abilities from its own text, and has only the mana ability related to the Forest basic land type (tap to add green mana). Abilities gained by other sources (if still valid) still exist.
The card also loses all other types (such as creature, planeswalker, enchantment) and subtypes (such as Elf, Venser or Aura). Supertypes (legendary, snow, etc) are kept.
205.1a. Some effects set an object's card type. In such cases, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types. Counters, effects, and damage marked on the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new card type. Similarly, when an effect sets one or more of an object's subtypes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). If an object's card type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that card type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a card type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object's card type is removed. Removing an object's subtype doesn't affect its card types at all.
^
This rule talks about losing the types.
305.7. If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copy effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land's subtype doesn't add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
^
This one talks about losing the abilities. It is specifically because of the basic land type 'Forest' on the effect.
====
So:
* The planeswalker will lose its loyalty abilities.
* Honor of the Pure will lose its static ability.
* Test of Endurance will lose its triggered ability.
I wasn't sure how much rules baggage came with this card, so I'm thankful that the only thing you really have to remember or know about this card is what's essentially printed on Song of the Dryads to begin with.
Thanks.
Just want to double-check something quickly and confirm my suspicions.
If the permanent being enchanted with SotD is legendary as the result of leyline of singularity, it can/will lose that supertype as well once the aura is attached and SBAs are checked since it's no longer a non-land, correct?
It won't be legendary but not because of any SBA check.
The things that affect the order in which effects are applied within a layer in the layer system are timestamps and dependencies. Effects are applied in timestamp order, but an effect won't be applied if it's dependent on an effect that hasn't been applied yet (again, within the same layer).
Leyline of Singularity is dependent on the Song because the latter changes the set of objects to which the former applies (in this scenario). Therefore the former is applied after the latter and the permanent with the Song attached isn't legendary.
There's no state-based action; there's just a different result of applying the continuous effects. The permanent is no longer legendary in this scenario as soon as the Song becomes attached to it, due to the dependency causing Song to apply before the Leyline.
Admittedly, the subtleties of the layer system is one area of the game which I've never been especially good at, so thanks for clarifying!
One additional question on the topic if I may...
Is there any particular reason why some cards specifically spell out "and loses all abilities" (ie: lignify) or "it loses all other abilities, card types, and creature types." (ie: darksteel mutation) (in their original printings, or their oracle texts in the case of these two particular cards), and others like this one don't? I'm just curious to know if there's any reason from a rules or functionality perspective why some cards (still) have that seemingly redundant stipulation (in their oracle texts) and other omit such "loses other/all abilities" text altogether if it's apparently not necessary when cards like this will completely overwrite and replace other cards' texts, types, and/or abilities. Thanks again.
Lignify and Darksteel Mutation need to specify that they remove things.
Notice that Blood Moon and Spreading Seas do not specify they they strip away types and abilities but Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth specifies that it only adds the Swamp type.
Being set to a land removes all other card-types(and all non-land sub-types) and being set to a forest overrides all abilities and land sub-types
What if there is no timestamp order where multiple "being set to a basic land" changing effects within the same layer enter/enchant simultaneously? For example, say in some highly unlikely scenario a show and tell resolves, and both song of the dryads and spreading seas enter enchanting the same land? Is is safe to assume the timestamp is then based on APNAP to determine if the land is an island or a forest? What if the land being enchanted also happens to be non-basic, and a third player brings blood moon onto the battlefield off the S&T?
Had to look it up myself, the active player gets to determine their timestamp order.
Although slightly off topic and may not have been the original intent of the wording here, if a permanent that isn't a basic land becomes enchanted by Song of the Dryads, it will simply read as follows. I'll use a popular commander as an example.
Maelstrom Wanderer - 5URG
Legendary Creature - Elemental
Creatures you control have haste.
Cascade, Cascade
7/5
After being enchanted by Song of the Dryads, it reads...
Maelstrom Wanderer - 5URG
Legendary Land - Forest
(Tap: Add G to your mana pool. Maelstrom Wanderer is colorless.) <-- Reminder text
As you'll notice, Song of the Dryads does not turn the permanent into a basic land, it just makes it a land with a basic land type. This means, like Sheldon Menery pointed out in a StarCityGames article today, hearing the words "Wasteland your commander" will sound weird, but be perfectly legal since it's not a basic land, just like Dryad Arbor is also not a basic land but can be targeted by Wasteland even though it has the "Forest" basic land type.
Since Song of the Dryads leaves him the subtype of Legendary, in a Legacy game, if my opponent had a Maelstrom Wanderer that I enchanted with Song of the Dryads, so he plays another Maelstrom Wanderer whom I also enchant with a Song of the Dryads, would the legendary rule apply and one be forced to go to the graveyard?
Daniel
As soon as the other one resolves one would need to be sacrificed. They both are legendary permanents with the name Maelstrom Wandered and the legend rule only look at the name and if it's legendary.
704.5k If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "legend rule".
EDIT: Gah, left the tabs open for too long without refreshing. What Rafig said.
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Not only did I write too late. I wrote it too fast aswell Put into graveyard it is! Could be interesting with Assault Suit otherwise. A miniature Mirror Gallery
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
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First off this should have been a new thread. This thread is a month old, let it rest.
To answer your question, the copy would be a normal maelstrom wanderer, with the exception of having the thespian stage copy ability, and not be a land. If the two wanderers are controlled by the same player then that player will have to put one of them in the graveyard.
Copy effects copy what is on the card, and ignore other effects being applied to it with the exception of other copy effects. Song of the Dryads does not have a copy effect so it's effects are ignored when the object it's enchanting is copied.