Why do cards like Leyline of the Void also affect permanents being put into a graveyard from the battlefield? Permanents aren't referred to as "cards" by rules text in other places (Giant Growth doesn't say "Target creature card on the battlefield...", after all).
The rule that applies to "from anywhere" text only applies to triggered abilities, and the ability in question isn't a triggered ability.
Gatherer rulings can't be relied on, either, because they're based on the CR and are prone to errors. I can't find the relevant CR rule that pertains to this.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The "from anywhere" part of the ability means that it doesn't care what zone it came from, so the ability looks at the object in the zone it would go to (the graveyard) in order to determine how to describe it. Without doing this, they would need to use awkward phrasing like "If a permanent an opponent owns would go to their graveyard or a card would be put in an opponent's graveyard from any other zone" or the like.
If the object would become a card in a graveyard due to the zone change (e.g. if it's a permanent, this only applies if it's not a token), then Leyline will affect the zone change.
The "from anywhere" part of the ability means that it doesn't care what zone it came from, so the ability looks at the object in the zone it would go to (the graveyard) in order to determine how to describe it.
What CR rule supports this? It's logical to think this; I just am wondering about the CR rule that supports this. From what I can see, the only rule that seems close to achieving this mindset is the one that pertains only to triggered abilities ("Whenever [...[ is put into a graveyard from anywhere", a la Emrakul, the Aeons Torn). If there is a rule that also pertains to replacement effects, that would be great.
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[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I'm not finding a specific rule in the CR that explicitly defines that a "from anywhere" zone change replacement effect describes the object using the term that applies to what that object looks like in the new zone, but here's a rule that uses a very similarly worded effect as an example.
616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
Example: Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads "If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it," and the other is a creature that reads "If [this creature] would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library." If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
The first replacement effect could only apply in this case if the phrase "a card" is able to apply to permanents.
108.2a In the text of spells or abilities, the term "card" is used only to refer to a card that’s not on the battlefield or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player’s hand.
Rule 108.2a says that the term "card" doesn't apply to permanents, so therefore cards like Leyline of the Void and the enchantment in the example in 616.1e shouldn't affect creatures on the battlefield.
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[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it’s moved to another zone by an effect or rule.
So as soon as the permanent is leaving the battlefield is now a card.
But the process of the object moving from the battlefield to another zone hasn't begun yet. To determine if the object would even be moved, the state of that object should is considered to see if it will be moved in the first place. Before the movement, the object is a "permanent", not a "card", and since the ability only affects "cards", there should be no movement involved.
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
A permanent is always a card (or token). A card is not always a permanent (such as instants). This was spelled out in lrmo's quoting of Rule 110.1. When a creature is leaving the battlefield, it is still a card as well as a permanent. This is why Leyline is able to exile it; it is a card moving from anywhere to the graveyard. Tokens on the other hand, would not be exiled and would exist (albeit quite briefly) in the graveyard in case you had any effects that looked for creatures dying.
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"You are what you pretend to be, so you must be careful what you pretend to be" from Mother Night
1) A permanent is either a card or a token. A permanent object exists only on the battlefield. Thus, a permanent is a card or token that is on the battlefield. (Assume that the permanent in question is not a token for these purposes.) [by 110.1]
2) The word "card" in the text of a spell or ability is used only to refer to a card that is not on the battlefield or the stack. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield, so a permanent is not "a card that is not on the battlefield". Thus, the word "card" does not refer to permanents. That nontoken permanents are cards according to the Comprehensive Rules doesn't matter here, because the fact that they are still permanents overrides this fact. [by 108.2a]
3) Leyline of the Void's ability uses the word "card". It is a replacement effect that replaces the movement event of a "card" going from an opponent's graveyard from anywhere to that card being put into the exile zone.
4) Since at the time the replacement effect would be applied, the object in question is still a permanent, it is not a "card" as referred to by the rules text of Leyline of the Void; rather, it is a permanent. Therefore, the replacement effect is not applicable to the object in question, meaning the object in question is still a permanent that will be moved to the graveyard from the battlefield. [by (2), 108.2a, and the functionality of replacement effects]
5) As the object in question moves from the graveyard to the battlefield, it ceases to be a permanent the moment this movement process begins. [by 108.2a]
I don't understand how one of my steps of reasoning is invalid here.
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[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
700.1. Anything that happens in a game is an event. Multiple events may take place during the resolution of a spell or ability. The text of triggered abilities and replacement effects defines the event they’re looking for. One “happening” may be treated as a single event by one ability and as multiple events by another.
Consider two questions:
If a player's nontoken permanent is put into to their graveyard while an opponent controls Vulturous Zombie, is that the event "Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere" is looking for?
If a player's nontoken permanent would be put into their graveyard while an opponent controls Leyline of the Void, is that the event "If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere" is looking for?
I see no reason for these questions to have different answers.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Step 3. Leyline of the Void replaces the event of a card ending up in the graveyard from anywhere. Replacement effects always describe the event they are replacing - the thing that would happen if the replacement effect didn't replace. An object is certainly a card when it is in the graveyard. As such, there is certainly a well-defined event of a card being put in a graveyard, no matter from where it comes (even outside the game if any effect did that). Reference to that sort of event is what you see on Leyline of the Void.
Leyline is glib on the nature of the object before it gets to the graveyard. It may seem to be saying a card is moving from somewhere, but it isn't.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
While other words may be used in templating instead of 'card' for a card that's on the battlefield or the stack, it doesn't mean that it doesn't qualify as a card for effects that care. A permanent can be card and an effect that uses the word 'card' to refer to the objects it affects can very much emcompass nontoken permanents. I see no evidence that the terms 'permanent' and 'card' should be considered mutually exclusive, no more than the terms 'creature' and 'permanent'.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Step 3. Leyline of the Void replaces the event of a card ending up in the graveyard from anywhere.
Ah, alright. It would be more helpful if cards like Leyline and Rest in Peace were worded this way (with the end result of the movement process) rather than with their current wording (with the movement process itself). Prior, I've grown to accept the interaction with permanents and Leyline and friends as fact, but I never went deeper to find out which rules actually allowed for this to work. You see where my confusion was coming from, though, right?
Thanks for all the help, everyone!
(EDIT: They should really put the "edit thread title" functionality back into the "edit opening post" functionality.)
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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The rule that applies to "from anywhere" text only applies to triggered abilities, and the ability in question isn't a triggered ability.
Gatherer rulings can't be relied on, either, because they're based on the CR and are prone to errors. I can't find the relevant CR rule that pertains to this.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
If the object would become a card in a graveyard due to the zone change (e.g. if it's a permanent, this only applies if it's not a token), then Leyline will affect the zone change.
What CR rule supports this? It's logical to think this; I just am wondering about the CR rule that supports this. From what I can see, the only rule that seems close to achieving this mindset is the one that pertains only to triggered abilities ("Whenever [...[ is put into a graveyard from anywhere", a la Emrakul, the Aeons Torn). If there is a rule that also pertains to replacement effects, that would be great.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The first replacement effect could only apply in this case if the phrase "a card" is able to apply to permanents.
Rule 108.2a says that the term "card" doesn't apply to permanents, so therefore cards like Leyline of the Void and the enchantment in the example in 616.1e shouldn't affect creatures on the battlefield.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
So as soon as the permanent is leaving the battlefield is now a card.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
First posted EDH deck: Hakim, Beardmaster
1) A permanent is either a card or a token. A permanent object exists only on the battlefield. Thus, a permanent is a card or token that is on the battlefield. (Assume that the permanent in question is not a token for these purposes.) [by 110.1]
2) The word "card" in the text of a spell or ability is used only to refer to a card that is not on the battlefield or the stack. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield, so a permanent is not "a card that is not on the battlefield". Thus, the word "card" does not refer to permanents. That nontoken permanents are cards according to the Comprehensive Rules doesn't matter here, because the fact that they are still permanents overrides this fact. [by 108.2a]
3) Leyline of the Void's ability uses the word "card". It is a replacement effect that replaces the movement event of a "card" going from an opponent's graveyard from anywhere to that card being put into the exile zone.
4) Since at the time the replacement effect would be applied, the object in question is still a permanent, it is not a "card" as referred to by the rules text of Leyline of the Void; rather, it is a permanent. Therefore, the replacement effect is not applicable to the object in question, meaning the object in question is still a permanent that will be moved to the graveyard from the battlefield. [by (2), 108.2a, and the functionality of replacement effects]
5) As the object in question moves from the graveyard to the battlefield, it ceases to be a permanent the moment this movement process begins. [by 108.2a]
I don't understand how one of my steps of reasoning is invalid here.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Consider two questions:
Leyline is glib on the nature of the object before it gets to the graveyard. It may seem to be saying a card is moving from somewhere, but it isn't.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Ah, alright. It would be more helpful if cards like Leyline and Rest in Peace were worded this way (with the end result of the movement process) rather than with their current wording (with the movement process itself). Prior, I've grown to accept the interaction with permanents and Leyline and friends as fact, but I never went deeper to find out which rules actually allowed for this to work. You see where my confusion was coming from, though, right?
Thanks for all the help, everyone!
(EDIT: They should really put the "edit thread title" functionality back into the "edit opening post" functionality.)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall