No I'm not going to ask if Platinum Angel ability overwrites Felidar Sovereign ability to win the game. My question is a bit different. My friends and I we're playing a 4-person Free-For-All with no range of influence (so every card effects everyone), and we basically got into a stalemate b/c one of them had Felidar Sovereign and I had the Platinum Angel (the other two players weren't really important in the question I'm asking).
My Friend had FS out for several turns with his life way above 40, while I had my Platinum Angel out. My friend said that regardless of whose turn it was if someone used a Doom Blade (or something similar) on my Platinum Angel he would win instantly b/c he "should have" won several turns ago. My argument was that he would at least have to wait until his upkeep b/c that's when the ability triggers. Who is right in this situation?
In Multiplayer "Player X wins the game" instead means "all of player X's opponents instead lose the game"
Quote from CR »
104.3h In a multiplayer game, an effect that states that a player wins the game instead causes all of
that player’s opponents to lose the game. (This may not cause the game to end if the limited
range of influence option is being used; see rule 801.)
You can't lose due to Platinum Angel, but the other two players involved can. The game will continue with you and the opponent with the Sovereign.
You can't lose due to Platinum Angel, but the other two players involved can. The game will continue with you and the opponent with the Sovereign.
While the CR citation is accurate, the other two players won't lose the game because the game-win event won't occur in the first place and can't be replaced with the player's opponents losing.
614.7. If a replacement effect would replace an event, but that event never happens, the replacement effect simply doesn't do anything.
614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.
^Is this right? The rule stating that "win" changes in multiplayer games is a game rule, rather than an effect. Do we have a place that states that rules that replace other things follow the procedures for replacement effects?
EDIT: From the comprehensive rules:
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
The change of "I win" to "everyone else loses" is not the result of a spell or ability, it's the result of a game rule. It seems to me that the other two players would still lose the game.
I asked on the official Judge forum since I remain unconvinced about whether 104.3h counts as a replacement rule per 614.1a: Link to those with accounts.
Until we get an official answer in either direction, speculating doesn't seem particularly useful. Will keep my eyes out on the topic and post when a definitive answer is given.
@Fellix, below: No need to apologize: I am curious about this myself, and while the definition of effect seems to specify that they come from card effects and game rules don't qualify, there's enough grey area that I'd like to see an official request for personal benefit and knowledge/learning, not necessarily because of a rules debate.
I asked on the official Judge forum since I remain unconvinced about whether 104.3h counts as a replacement rule per 614.1a: Link to those with accounts.
Until we get an official answer in either direction, speculating doesn't seem particularly useful. Will keep my eyes out on the topic and post when a definitive answer is given.
I apologize; I didn't mean to make it sound like I was speculating, though it absolutely came out that way
There's no Magic term for "replacement rule", and it doesn't appear at all in the comprehensive rules, so we have to go with the rules definition of "effect" to determine if game rules are replacement effects. They aren't.
Because replacement effect rules only apply to effects, and because game rules aren't effects, the other two players will still lose as a result of Felidar Sovereign's trigger.
My Friend had FS out for several turns with his life way above 40, while I had my Platinum Angel out. My friend said that regardless of whose turn it was if someone used a Doom Blade (or something similar) on my Platinum Angel he would win instantly b/c he "should have" won several turns ago. My argument was that he would at least have to wait until his upkeep b/c that's when the ability triggers. Who is right in this situation?
In Multiplayer "Player X wins the game" instead means "all of player X's opponents instead lose the game"
You can't lose due to Platinum Angel, but the other two players involved can. The game will continue with you and the opponent with the Sovereign.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
While the CR citation is accurate, the other two players won't lose the game because the game-win event won't occur in the first place and can't be replaced with the player's opponents losing.
EDIT: From the comprehensive rules:
The change of "I win" to "everyone else loses" is not the result of a spell or ability, it's the result of a game rule. It seems to me that the other two players would still lose the game.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
Until we get an official answer in either direction, speculating doesn't seem particularly useful. Will keep my eyes out on the topic and post when a definitive answer is given.
@Fellix, below: No need to apologize: I am curious about this myself, and while the definition of effect seems to specify that they come from card effects and game rules don't qualify, there's enough grey area that I'd like to see an official request for personal benefit and knowledge/learning, not necessarily because of a rules debate.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
I apologize; I didn't mean to make it sound like I was speculating, though it absolutely came out that way
There's no Magic term for "replacement rule", and it doesn't appear at all in the comprehensive rules, so we have to go with the rules definition of "effect" to determine if game rules are replacement effects. They aren't.
Because replacement effect rules only apply to effects, and because game rules aren't effects, the other two players will still lose as a result of Felidar Sovereign's trigger.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.