So if i have an Academy Ruins + Mindslaver lock down, with enough mana to fuel it, and my opponent refuses to just surrender (justification "hope for a misplay"), does this count as slow play or something similar?
If so, do they get a game loss/ infraction/ etc.?
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Can you not simply propose a loop of, "I Academy Ruins the Mindslaver, draw Mindslaver, activate Mindslaver targeting you, then pass, and then force you to draw, discard, then pass until the game ends?"
Can you not simply propose a loop of, "I Academy Ruins the Mindslaver, draw Mindslaver, activate Mindslaver targeting you, then pass, and then force you to draw, discard, then pass until the game ends?"
You can say that, and most people will forfeit after that, but your opponent has the right to have you go through the combo because the game requires you to run through it.
Although you do need a reason to interact with the loop since the other player is drawing cards it is hard to say for certainty that they can't interact. With the loop you propose then he will have the ability to use instant or cards with flash that could interact with your combo if you do nothing other than draw/discard. Considering that if you want to guarantee he can't do anything then you can not shortcut through the turns.
Actually, when I asked a similar question to a local judge, his answer was different; he said that one is not allowed to 'deny' a shortcut, if he or she is (obviously) not able or willing to interact with it. Doing so may be considered Slow Play and appropriate warnings may be issued is what he said.
Not conceding does not have to do with interacting with a shortcut. Taking an action that could loop a large number of times and telling your opponent you are going to do it 45 times, and then having your opponent say he wants you to go through the entire process of that loop 45 times would be considered "denying a shortcut". This is not a shortcut. You still actually have to find a way to win. Also, you only take over his turn, not the actions he takes on your turns, so he can still block and play spells as normal during your turn.
Even if he has no solution ? I mean, like comboing with SecondSunrise.dec and the opponent is either tapped out or hand-empty or no graveyard hate whatsoever available ?
Isn't it considered stalling ? (like thinking 3 minutes about casted Scapeshift when you hold no counterspell in hand)
= Paoz =
There is a difference between someone not being able to win and another player actually being able to win. You still have to find a way to win the game. The Mindslaver combo is not one which causes you to win on its own. So, yes, even if he cannot win. It is still possible, until you find a way to win, that the game can end in a draw, or you could lose by drawing cards from an empty library for instance.
Thinking about whether to cast a counterspell for that long is different :p. You are required as a player to take actions in a timely fashion, regardless of whether they would win or lose the game or do neither. After a certain amount of time, you would call a judge on them. That has absolutely nothing to do with this scenario though. In that case, your opponent has priority and is required, by game rules to do something(either play abilities or spells or pass priority back to you) in a timely fashion. An opponent is never required to concede, especially when the action being taken is not one that will itself result in him losing the game. As I said before, simply reusing Mindslaver over and over again does not give you a win condition. You still have to win the game in some way, or at least find a way to win the game in some way.
A Mindslaver lock is a win condition by itself, they run out of cards and you don't because you're drawing Mindslaver every turn. But yeah, it's not stalling and someone can't ever be forced to concede the game.
I heard from a high-level judge that you can propose the multi-turn shortcuts "Slaver, Ruins Slaver" (for your actions) and "Draw, tap lands, end turn, discard drawn card" (for your controlled opponents' actions). Either player can stop the shortcut at any time for any legitimate reason (including you if you wanted to say discard a card other than the drawn card), but if a legitimate reason does not exist, they may not stop the shortcut without it being slow play. This interpretation is consistent with the rules.
While in the end your opponent may force you to go through the actions, if you propose the correct shortcuts, you should end up in a situation where your hand never really leaves your opponents' deck, as you basically mill them out card-for-card.
At any event where my opponent were to ask me to walk through the slaver combo, I would probably first call a judge so I could more effectively introduce my shortcuts without having to worry about time/getting a time extension later.
What you are proposing isn't a shortcut but just quick playing thru the turns. If you are checking every turn to see if you want to discard a different card then you are playing out the turns, just really quickly. Also your combo assumes they start with 7 cards in hand and no instants to play. You don't know if their deck has anyway to stop you so you can't assume they don't.
All in all you can't force someone to concede, but you can ask to quickly play all the turns because if they accepted the shortcut then they wouldn't even go through the deck cause you are shorting to were they lose from drawing from an empty library.
tho generally they will concede if they don't have a way to interact with the combo.
What you are proposing isn't a shortcut but just quick playing thru the turns. If you are checking every turn to see if you want to discard a different card then you are playing out the turns, just really quickly. Also your combo assumes they start with 7 cards in hand and no instants to play.
All in all you can't force someone to concede, but you can ask to quickly play all the turns because if they accepted the shortcut then they wouldn't even go through the deck cause you are shorting to were they lose from drawing from an empty library.
It IS considered a shortcut in the sense that you aren't required to even go through the process of untapping your lands, casting Slaver, activating Slaver, and activating Ruins. Additionally, you aren't required to untap your opponents' lands, go through their phases, or even draw and choose a card to discard (rather, the top card will just end in the graveyard after being quickly "drawn").
You are correct that my shortcut assumes the opponent is at maximum hand-size. Until then, you propose the same shortcut without the discard. However, my shortcut does not "assume" that my opponent has no instants to play. If my opponent has an instant to play (that at this point we would both know about, with them having no mana available to them), they would be within their rights to ask me to stop shortcutting. However, if they have no such play and ask me to stop, that is at best Warning - Slow Play, and at worst Cheating - Stalling for attempting to take advantage of a time limit.
If you still do not believe me, I can pull out the relevant rules on multi-turn shortcutting. This has very much in common with me saying I tap and untap Deceiver Exarch "one million times" and very little in common with me furiously tapping and untapping my Exarch.
EDIT:
Quote from MTR »
4.2 Tournament Shortcuts
A tournament shortcut is an action taken by players to skip parts of the technical play sequence without explicitly announcing them. Tournament shortcuts are essential for the smooth play of a game, as they allow players to play in a clear fashion without getting bogged down in the minutia of the rules. Most tournament shortcuts involve skipping one or more priority passes to the mutual understanding of all players; if a player wishes to demonstrate or use a new tournament shortcut entailing any number of priority passes, he or she must be clear where the game state will end up as part of the request.
A player may interrupt a tournament shortcut by explaining how he or she is deviating from it or at which point in the middle he or she wishes to take an action. A player may interrupt their own shortcut in this manner. A player is not allowed to use a previously undeclared tournament shortcut, or to modify an in-use tournament shortcut without announcing the modification, in order to create ambiguity in the game.
A player may not request priority and take no action with it. If a player decides he or she does not wish to do anything, the request is nullified and priority is returned to the player that originally had it.
Certain conventional tournament shortcuts used in Magic are detailed below. If a player wishes to deviate from these, he or she should be explicit about doing so. Note that some of these are exceptions to the policy above in that they do cause non-explicit priority passes.
Also, please refer to the Comprehensive Rules 716 - "Taking Shortcuts", particularly 716.2a
Quote from 716.2a »
716.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non- repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.
If so, do they get a game loss/ infraction/ etc.?
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Then you will have to actually play out every turn and kill them.
You can say that, and most people will forfeit after that, but your opponent has the right to have you go through the combo because the game requires you to run through it.
Not conceding does not have to do with interacting with a shortcut. Taking an action that could loop a large number of times and telling your opponent you are going to do it 45 times, and then having your opponent say he wants you to go through the entire process of that loop 45 times would be considered "denying a shortcut". This is not a shortcut. You still actually have to find a way to win. Also, you only take over his turn, not the actions he takes on your turns, so he can still block and play spells as normal during your turn.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
There is a difference between someone not being able to win and another player actually being able to win. You still have to find a way to win the game. The Mindslaver combo is not one which causes you to win on its own. So, yes, even if he cannot win. It is still possible, until you find a way to win, that the game can end in a draw, or you could lose by drawing cards from an empty library for instance.
Thinking about whether to cast a counterspell for that long is different :p. You are required as a player to take actions in a timely fashion, regardless of whether they would win or lose the game or do neither. After a certain amount of time, you would call a judge on them. That has absolutely nothing to do with this scenario though. In that case, your opponent has priority and is required, by game rules to do something(either play abilities or spells or pass priority back to you) in a timely fashion. An opponent is never required to concede, especially when the action being taken is not one that will itself result in him losing the game. As I said before, simply reusing Mindslaver over and over again does not give you a win condition. You still have to win the game in some way, or at least find a way to win the game in some way.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
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While in the end your opponent may force you to go through the actions, if you propose the correct shortcuts, you should end up in a situation where your hand never really leaves your opponents' deck, as you basically mill them out card-for-card.
At any event where my opponent were to ask me to walk through the slaver combo, I would probably first call a judge so I could more effectively introduce my shortcuts without having to worry about time/getting a time extension later.
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All in all you can't force someone to concede, but you can ask to quickly play all the turns because if they accepted the shortcut then they wouldn't even go through the deck cause you are shorting to were they lose from drawing from an empty library.
tho generally they will concede if they don't have a way to interact with the combo.
It IS considered a shortcut in the sense that you aren't required to even go through the process of untapping your lands, casting Slaver, activating Slaver, and activating Ruins. Additionally, you aren't required to untap your opponents' lands, go through their phases, or even draw and choose a card to discard (rather, the top card will just end in the graveyard after being quickly "drawn").
You are correct that my shortcut assumes the opponent is at maximum hand-size. Until then, you propose the same shortcut without the discard. However, my shortcut does not "assume" that my opponent has no instants to play. If my opponent has an instant to play (that at this point we would both know about, with them having no mana available to them), they would be within their rights to ask me to stop shortcutting. However, if they have no such play and ask me to stop, that is at best Warning - Slow Play, and at worst Cheating - Stalling for attempting to take advantage of a time limit.
If you still do not believe me, I can pull out the relevant rules on multi-turn shortcutting. This has very much in common with me saying I tap and untap Deceiver Exarch "one million times" and very little in common with me furiously tapping and untapping my Exarch.
EDIT:
Also, please refer to the Comprehensive Rules 716 - "Taking Shortcuts", particularly 716.2a
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UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
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