Does Sudden Spoiling have any effect on Avacyn, Angel of Hope? Does it make Avacyn not indestructible and unable to grant indestructibility to permanents that controller controls?
Yes, it does work on Avacyn. While indestructibility itself is not an ability (if you cast Humble on another creature that player controls, it would still be indestructible, since it's just something that is true about that permanent, not an ability), Sudden Spoiling would remove the ability that makes everything indestructible, so until end of turn, Avacyn and all other permanents would be able to be destroyed.
Whilst indestructibility is a quality not an ability the text '~ and other permanents your control is indestructible' is one.
Sudden spoiling is going to remove that text from Avacyn, Angel of Hope so there is not going to be anything that makes your permanents indestructible so you may doomblade them to your hearts content.
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Ah, so if a card is worded/templated as "~ is indestructible," that is a characteristic of the card and not an ability that can be affected by Sudden Spoiling or similar cards.
Ah, so if a card is worded/templated as "~ is indestructible," that is a characteristic of the card and not an ability that can be affected by Sudden Spoiling or similar cards.
Thanks for the answers.
This is incorrect being indestructible is a quality and depending on the source of the quality may or may not be removed by sudden spoiling.
As I put in my first post the text '~ is indestructible' is an ability and will be removed by sudden spoiling rendering the object it was on no longer indestructible.
If the indestructibility is being conferred by something like the emblem Elspeth, Knight-Errant creates using her ultimate that is not an ability of the creature so it won't be removed by sudden spoiling.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Ah, so if a card is worded/templated as "~ is indestructible," that is a characteristic of the card and not an ability that can be affected by Sudden Spoiling or similar cards.
No, "~ is indestructible." is still an ability.
The difference is seen when you compare the auras indestructibility and lifelink.
If they are both enchanting the same creature, sudden spoiling will remove the lifelink ability, because the lifelink aura gives the ability to the creature (enchanted creature has ...).
But, the creature will still be indestructible, because the indestructibility aura doesn't give any abilities to the creature, it just makes something true (enchanted permanent is ...).
Ah, so if a card is worded/templated as "~ is indestructible," that is a characteristic of the card and not an ability that can be affected by Sudden Spoiling or similar cards.
Thanks for the answers.
No, not quite right. This is sort of an unintuitive rules interaction. There are two things happening here:
1) Avacyn has an ability that makes her indestructible
2) Avacyn is indestructible (this is not an "ability")
These are very similar, but are two different things. When you use Sudden Spoiling, you affect only the first one. It takes away the ability that makes Avacyn indestructible. When the first one is gone, the second one no longer exists, but this is not directly because of Sudden Spoiling, only a result of the ability causing indestructibility no longer existing.
Now let's look at Spearbreaker Behemoth. Let's say you activate Spearbreaker's ability targetting Avacyn. Now we have three things happening:
1) There is a static effect causing Avacyn to be indestructible
2) Avacyn has an ability that causes her to be indestructible
3) Avacyn is indestructible
When we cast sudden spoiling, it causes Avacyn to lose abilities, losing her ability that makes her indestructible. But since there is another effect causing her to be indestructible, and being indestructible isn't an ability that can be directly lost via Sudden Spoiling, Avacyn will have the following things happening:
1) There is a static effect causing Avacyn to be indestructible
2) Avacyn is indestructible
So what we see is that losing abilities will sometimes cause things to no longer be indestructible, but it doesn't directly take away being indestructible because it is not an ability in and of itself.
The difference is seen when you compare the auras indestructibility and lifelink.
If they are both enchanting the same creature, sudden spoiling will remove the lifelink ability, because the lifelink aura gives the ability to the creature (enchanted creature has ...).
But, the creature will still be indestructible, because the indestructibility aura doesn't give any abilities to the creature, it just makes something true (enchanted permanent is ...).
I think I'm still not clear on this.
It sounds like there a difference between whether "~ is indestructible" is written directly on the card or made true by a separate card.
EDIT:Darksteel Colossus, for example, is worded as "~ is indestructible" on the card, so can Sudden Spoiling can take that away? It sounds like yes, based on what you're saying.
EDIT: Ok, based on Rootbreaker's definition, "~is indestructible" is a static ability and can be affected by Sudden Spoiling.
If somebody uses Withstand Death on a regular creature, then Sudden Spoiling can't affect it?
No, not quite right. This is sort of an unintuitive rules interaction. There are two things happening here:
1) Avacyn has an ability that makes her indestructible
2) Avacyn is indestructible (this is not an "ability")
These are very similar, but are two different things. When you use Sudden Spoiling, you affect only the first one. It takes away the ability that makes Avacyn indestructible. When the first one is gone, the second one no longer exists, but this is not directly because of Sudden Spoiling, only a result of the ability causing indestructibility no longer existing.
Now let's look at Spearbreaker Behemoth. Let's say you activate Spearbreaker's ability targetting Avacyn. Now we have three things happening:
1) There is a static effect causing Avacyn to be indestructible
2) Avacyn has an ability that causes her to be indestructible
3) Avacyn is indestructible
When we cast sudden spoiling, it causes Avacyn to lose abilities, losing her ability that makes her indestructible. But since there is another effect causing her to be indestructible, and being indestructible isn't an ability that can be directly lost via Sudden Spoiling, Avacyn will have the following things happening:
1) There is a static effect causing Avacyn to be indestructible
2) Avacyn is indestructible
So what we see is that losing abilities will sometimes cause things to no longer be indestructible, but it doesn't directly take away being indestructible because it is not an ability in and of itself.
Hopefully this helps clear it up!
This explanation makes sense to me. Avacyn has an ability that makes herself and permanents the controller controls indestructible. To me, it sounds like something "is indestructible" (that exact wording) is a characteristic, not an ability, so Sudden Spoiling has no effect on it.
So, I cannot use Sudden Spoiling to affect Darksteel Colossus's indestructibility, since the wording is not an ability. If I use Withstand Death on a creature, Sudden Spoiling also cannot affect the creature, since a static effect has been put in place in the game on that creature.
EDIT: Ok, based on Rootbreaker's definition, "~is indestructible" is a static ability and can be affected by Sudden Spoiling.
That's correct. The text "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible," is an ability of Darksteel Colossus. Sudden spoiling can remove it, which makes it possible to destroy the colossus.
Withstand death just makes a creature indestructible without giving anything an ability.
Edit:
The term you're looking for is continuous effect. It's not a static ability. There's no such thing as a static effect.
Ok, so it is a static ability (ability being the keyword here) that can be affected by Sudden Spoiling.
That's correct. The text "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible," is an ability of Darksteel Colossus. Sudden spoiling can remove it, which makes it possible to destroy the colossus.
Withstand death just makes a creature indestructible without giving anything an ability.
Edit:
Quote from Eriol »
Sudden Spoiling also cannot affect the creature, since a static effect has been put in place in the game on that creature.
The term you're looking for is continuous effect. It's not a static ability. There's no such thing as a static effect.
It sounds like there a difference between whether "~ is indestructible" is written directly on the card or made true by a separate card.
Darksteel Colossus, for example, is worded as "~ is indestructible" on the card, so can Sudden Spoiling can take that away? It sounds like yes, based on what you're saying.
If somebody uses Withstand Death on a regular creature, then Sudden Spoiling can't affect it?
Correct until the end of the current turn the rules have been rewritten to state that the targeted creature can't be destroyed. Sudden spoiling will have not effect on this.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
2) "~ is indestructible" written on the card (i.e. Darksteel Colossus) is a static ability of that card and can be removed by Sudden Spoiling.
3) Applying a continuous effect that makes a card indestructible, such as Elspeth's emblem, Withstand Death, or Spellbreak Behemoth's ability, creates a continuous effect/game state where Sudden Spoiling cannot remove the indestructibility. (The indestructibility is from a continuous effect, not an ability.)
2) "~ is indestructible" written on the card (i.e. Darksteel Colossus) is a static ability of that card and can be removed by Sudden Spoiling.
3) Applying a continuous effect that makes a card indestructible, such as Elspeth's emblem, Withstand Death, or Spellbreak Behemoth's ability, creates a continuous effect/game state where Sudden Spoiling cannot remove the indestructibility. (The indestructibility is from a continuous effect, not an ability.)
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Sudden spoiling is going to remove that text from Avacyn, Angel of Hope so there is not going to be anything that makes your permanents indestructible so you may doomblade them to your hearts content.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Thanks for the answers.
This is incorrect being indestructible is a quality and depending on the source of the quality may or may not be removed by sudden spoiling.
As I put in my first post the text '~ is indestructible' is an ability and will be removed by sudden spoiling rendering the object it was on no longer indestructible.
If the indestructibility is being conferred by something like the emblem Elspeth, Knight-Errant creates using her ultimate that is not an ability of the creature so it won't be removed by sudden spoiling.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
No, "~ is indestructible." is still an ability.
The difference is seen when you compare the auras indestructibility and lifelink.
If they are both enchanting the same creature, sudden spoiling will remove the lifelink ability, because the lifelink aura gives the ability to the creature (enchanted creature has ...).
But, the creature will still be indestructible, because the indestructibility aura doesn't give any abilities to the creature, it just makes something true (enchanted permanent is ...).
No, not quite right. This is sort of an unintuitive rules interaction. There are two things happening here:
1) Avacyn has an ability that makes her indestructible
2) Avacyn is indestructible (this is not an "ability")
These are very similar, but are two different things. When you use Sudden Spoiling, you affect only the first one. It takes away the ability that makes Avacyn indestructible. When the first one is gone, the second one no longer exists, but this is not directly because of Sudden Spoiling, only a result of the ability causing indestructibility no longer existing.
Now let's look at Spearbreaker Behemoth. Let's say you activate Spearbreaker's ability targetting Avacyn. Now we have three things happening:
1) There is a static effect causing Avacyn to be indestructible
2) Avacyn has an ability that causes her to be indestructible
3) Avacyn is indestructible
When we cast sudden spoiling, it causes Avacyn to lose abilities, losing her ability that makes her indestructible. But since there is another effect causing her to be indestructible, and being indestructible isn't an ability that can be directly lost via Sudden Spoiling, Avacyn will have the following things happening:
1) There is a static effect causing Avacyn to be indestructible
2) Avacyn is indestructible
So what we see is that losing abilities will sometimes cause things to no longer be indestructible, but it doesn't directly take away being indestructible because it is not an ability in and of itself.
Hopefully this helps clear it up!
L2 Judge
I think I'm still not clear on this.
It sounds like there a difference between whether "~ is indestructible" is written directly on the card or made true by a separate card.
EDIT:Darksteel Colossus, for example, is worded as "~ is indestructible" on the card, so can Sudden Spoiling can take that away? It sounds like yes, based on what you're saying.
EDIT: Ok, based on Rootbreaker's definition, "~is indestructible" is a static ability and can be affected by Sudden Spoiling.
If somebody uses Withstand Death on a regular creature, then Sudden Spoiling can't affect it?
This explanation makes sense to me. Avacyn has an ability that makes herself and permanents the controller controls indestructible. To me, it sounds like something "is indestructible" (that exact wording) is a characteristic, not an ability, so Sudden Spoiling has no effect on it.
So, I cannot use Sudden Spoiling to affect Darksteel Colossus's indestructibility, since the wording is not an ability. If I use Withstand Death on a creature, Sudden Spoiling also cannot affect the creature, since a static effect has been put in place in the game on that creature.EDIT: Ok, based on Rootbreaker's definition, "~is indestructible" is a static ability and can be affected by Sudden Spoiling.
Ok, so it is a static ability (ability being the keyword here) that can be affected by Sudden Spoiling.
Withstand death just makes a creature indestructible without giving anything an ability.
Edit:
The term you're looking for is continuous effect. It's not a static ability. There's no such thing as a static effect.
After sudden spoiling resolves the darksteel colossus is a vanilla 0/2 so is destructible.
Correct until the end of the current turn the rules have been rewritten to state that the targeted creature can't be destroyed. Sudden spoiling will have not effect on this.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
1) Avacyn, Angel of Hope has an ability that can be removed by Sudden Spoiling.
2) "~ is indestructible" written on the card (i.e. Darksteel Colossus) is a static ability of that card and can be removed by Sudden Spoiling.
3) Applying a continuous effect that makes a card indestructible, such as Elspeth's emblem, Withstand Death, or Spellbreak Behemoth's ability, creates a continuous effect/game state where Sudden Spoiling cannot remove the indestructibility. (The indestructibility is from a continuous effect, not an ability.)
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