I was told that there was a rules change concerning the interaction between undying (Young Wolf?) and cards like Black Sun's Zenith, that would cancel the counters before hand and then kill the creature, so it would come back even if it had already done it once before.
I honestly think this is a load of crap, but I figured I'd ask to make sure. Also, when are rules usually updated? Is there a schedule, or is it just whenever?
There has not been a change since February 1. Usually rules changes are announced on the mothership. The date of the last change is also included in the rules document.
The rules on this subject are the same as they have always been. In fact, an additional rule has been added to the Comprehensive Rules to clarify that this exact situation works the same way it always has:
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent's last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
All state-based effects are checked at the same time and then performed.
This means if the Young Wolf with a +1/+1 would have its toughness reduced to 0 or less from the counters from Black Sun Zenith it would be put into in the graveyard at the same as the +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 cancel each other out.
This means the last time the young wolf was in play it had a +1/+1 counter on it so won't return.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
what happens if you have Geralf's Messenger out that has undied (has a +1/+1 on it) and you Black Sun's Zenith for 1? Is he unable to undie again since he has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 on him?
what happens if you have Geralf's Messenger out that has undied (has a +1/+1 on it) and you Black Sun's Zenith for 1? Is he unable to undie again since he has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 on him?
Same thing. Unless he doesn't die from the BSZ, there will be both counters when he dies and he won't come back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're having creature problems I feel bad for you son
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
The undead Geralf (4/3) doesn't die from a BSZ for 1 but what if he dies later, say by combat?
Is he only considered to have the +1/+1 counters on him if he's dying to the BSZ but not later on when dying to combat?
If the state based action of having 0 or less toughness isn't triggered by him getting -1/-1 counters, then the counters simply cancel each other out. He would lose his positive counter due to gaining a negative counter, thus be left without any counters, so if he died at any point after that his undying ability would trigger and return him to the battlefield.
The rule previously discussed in the thread only applies to a creature with undying dying from the same action that would otherwise remove its positive counters.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
The undead Geralf (4/3) doesn't die from a BSZ for 1 but what if he dies later, say by combat?
Is he only considered to have the +1/+1 counters on him if he's dying to the BSZ but not later on when dying to combat?
If he dies later then the last known information will see him as having no +1/+1 counters (unless another effect has since added one of course) and undying will return him to play with a +1/+1 counter. Basically before players can get priority after a spell resolves, state-based actions have to be checked (i.e counters are cancelled out, craetures with 0 or less toughness placed in the grave, non-indestructible creatures marked for lethal damage placed in the grave, etc). So after BSZ resolves the last known information of Messenger is that it had a counter, however when state-based actions are later checked again the last known information no longer sees it as having a counter since BSZ for 1 cancelled out the counter.
So I have a Geralf's Messenger in play. He get's killed in combat and returns with a +1/+1 (becomes a 4/3).
Then someone uses a black sun's zenith for 2. My Geralf turns into a 2/1 because one +1/+1 cancels one -1/-1, leaving him with just one -1/-1.
Then my Geralf get's killed in combat again.
My question is: Will he come to play with no counters (he had a -1/-1 which will cancel the +1/+1) or will he come with a +1/+1 counter (the -1/-1 he had goes away)?
So I have a Geralf's Messenger in play. He get's killed in combat and returns with a +1/+1 (becomes a 4/3).
Then someone uses a black sun's zenith for 2. My Geralf turns into a 2/1 because one +1/+1 cancels one -1/-1, leaving him with just one -1/-1.
Then my Geralf get's killed in combat again.
My question is: Will he come to play with no counters (he had a -1/-1 which will cancel the +1/+1) or will he come with a +1/+1 counter (the -1/-1 he had goes away)?
Counters are removed from a permanent when it changes zones. It will only have the +1/+1 counter put on it by undying when it reenters the battlefield.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Counters are removed from a permanent when it changes zones. It will only have the +1/+1 counter put on it by undying when it reenters the battlefield.
Thanks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I honestly think this is a load of crap, but I figured I'd ask to make sure. Also, when are rules usually updated? Is there a schedule, or is it just whenever?
There has not been a change since February 1. Usually rules changes are announced on the mothership. The date of the last change is also included in the rules document.
The rules on this subject are the same as they have always been. In fact, an additional rule has been added to the Comprehensive Rules to clarify that this exact situation works the same way it always has:
This means if the Young Wolf with a +1/+1 would have its toughness reduced to 0 or less from the counters from Black Sun Zenith it would be put into in the graveyard at the same as the +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 cancel each other out.
This means the last time the young wolf was in play it had a +1/+1 counter on it so won't return.
Trade Thread
Standard
UB UB Control UB
UW UW Pristine Control UW
UW Venser Control UW
Same thing. Unless he doesn't die from the BSZ, there will be both counters when he dies and he won't come back.
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
Is he only considered to have the +1/+1 counters on him if he's dying to the BSZ but not later on when dying to combat?
Trade Thread
Standard
UB UB Control UB
UW UW Pristine Control UW
UW Venser Control UW
If the state based action of having 0 or less toughness isn't triggered by him getting -1/-1 counters, then the counters simply cancel each other out. He would lose his positive counter due to gaining a negative counter, thus be left without any counters, so if he died at any point after that his undying ability would trigger and return him to the battlefield.
The rule previously discussed in the thread only applies to a creature with undying dying from the same action that would otherwise remove its positive counters.
Living End Contributor and Enthusiast
Come Pucatrade with me
Rules Advisor
Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
If he dies later then the last known information will see him as having no +1/+1 counters (unless another effect has since added one of course) and undying will return him to play with a +1/+1 counter. Basically before players can get priority after a spell resolves, state-based actions have to be checked (i.e counters are cancelled out, craetures with 0 or less toughness placed in the grave, non-indestructible creatures marked for lethal damage placed in the grave, etc). So after BSZ resolves the last known information of Messenger is that it had a counter, however when state-based actions are later checked again the last known information no longer sees it as having a counter since BSZ for 1 cancelled out the counter.
Then someone uses a black sun's zenith for 2. My Geralf turns into a 2/1 because one +1/+1 cancels one -1/-1, leaving him with just one -1/-1.
Then my Geralf get's killed in combat again.
My question is: Will he come to play with no counters (he had a -1/-1 which will cancel the +1/+1) or will he come with a +1/+1 counter (the -1/-1 he had goes away)?
Counters are removed from a permanent when it changes zones. It will only have the +1/+1 counter put on it by undying when it reenters the battlefield.
Thanks