Say I have a Grafdigger's Cage and a Goblin Welder in play, and an artifact creature in my graveyard. What happens if I choose the Cage as one of the Welder's targets and the artifact creature as the other?
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Since Goblin Welder's ability only looks to see if the both targets are still legal, it doesn't care that its ability can't do something to both targets legally. So it will continue to resolve after the check (since the targets are indeed legal), and it will do as much as possible. The artifact on the battlefield will be sacrificed and the artifact in the graveyard will just remain there, since putting it onto the battlefield from the graveyard is an impossible action.
It will work this way because the actions are simultaneous. At the moment you would try to put the artifact card from the graveyard to the battlefield, that's not a legal action, even though it would be legal immediately after you sacrifice the Cage. It works the same way as replacement effects, which must apply before the event actually occurs to modify that event; only in this case, it's a change of game rules that is in effect at the moment the event would occur.
You definitely sacrifice the cage. Nothing is stopping you from doing that, so the 'exchange' (simultaneous sac and rez) will still happen as far as the cage is concerned. Whether or not the artifact creature comes back into play has to do with whether or not the cage 'sees' it come back. I would say the cage doesn't see it, because it is never on the battlefield as the creature enters the battlefield, so I would say the artifact creature comes into play as normal. Just my interpretation, and I'm sure i'll get torn apart, but it seems like the cage's static ability goes away simultaneously as the creature tries to enter the battlefield. For example, if you cast Polymorph and targeted the animated cage and flipped into a Blightsteel Colossus, I think you would be able to put it on the battlefield. Again, I may get torn apart, but that's my interpretation.
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
You definitely sacrifice the cage. Nothing is stopping you from doing that, so the 'exchange' (simultaneous sac and rez) will still happen as far as the cage is concerned. Whether or not the artifact creature comes back into play has to do with whether or not the cage 'sees' it come back. I would say the cage doesn't see it, because it is never on the battlefield as the creature enters the battlefield, so I would say the artifact creature comes into play as normal.
That was my thought. What's the reason the Oracle wording hasn't been changed back to use "exchange" since that's what's printed on the card?
EDIT: okay bimmerbot, thanks for that.
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...the pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless. If it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it or the wise make plans against it.
-- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War
You definitely sacrifice the cage. Nothing is stopping you from doing that, so the 'exchange' (simultaneous sac and rez) will still happen as far as the cage is concerned. Whether or not the artifact creature comes back into play has to do with whether or not the cage 'sees' it come back. I would say the cage doesn't see it, because it is never on the battlefield as the creature enters the battlefield, so I would say the artifact creature comes into play as normal.
And you would be wrong.
Sacrificing the Cage and putting the artifact creature onto the battlefield is done as one simultaneous action. Before you can do any of it, you have to determine how much of it is possible. At that moment in time, the Cage is still on the battlefield, so it says that putting the artifact creature onto the battlefield is impossible.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
You definitely sacrifice the cage. Nothing is stopping you from doing that, so the 'exchange' (simultaneous sac and rez) will still happen as far as the cage is concerned. Whether or not the artifact creature comes back into play has to do with whether or not the cage 'sees' it come back. I would say the cage doesn't see it, because it is never on the battlefield as the creature enters the battlefield, so I would say the artifact creature comes into play as normal. Just my interpretation, and I'm sure i'll get torn apart, but it seems like the cage's static ability goes away simultaneously as the creature tries to enter the battlefield. For example, if you cast Polymorph and targeted the cage and flipped into a Blightsteel Colossus, I think you would be able to put it on the battlefield. Again, I may get torn apart, but that's my interpretation.
Polymorph works differently, because the actions are sequential. First, you sacrifice the Cage (so it no longer applies), then you flip into the Blightsteel. With a simultaneous action (like Welder, which is unique), it has to work differently. Before you perform the event (sacrifice Cage, put an artifact form the grave to the field), the Cage is applying a change in the game rules, such that putting the card from the grave to the field is not legal. So when you perform the actual event, the only legal part of the event is to sacrifice the Cage.
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Before you can do any of it, you have to determine how much of it is possible.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could cite this from the comp rules. It does not sound like anything I've ever heard of.
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Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
That was my thought. What's the reason the Oracle wording hasn't been changed back to use "exchange" since that's what's printed on the card?
EDIT: okay bimmerbot, thanks for that.
You're welcome.
The rules for Exchange include this:
701.8d Some spells or abilities may instruct a player to exchange cards in one zone with cards in a different zone (for example, exiled cards and cards in a player‘s hand). These spells and abilities work the same as other "exchange" spells and abilities, except they can exchange the cards only if all the cards are owned by the same player.
The functional difference is that you can target an artifact on the battlefield not owned by the player who controls it, and the ability can still resolve.
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I would greatly appreciate it if you could cite this from the comp rules.
There is no such rule because checking legality before the action is done is the only possible time to do it. Checking afterwards is pointless, and checking during is impossible since the action is one atomic instruction.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Interesting, didn't know about that distinction. Thanks again.
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...the pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless. If it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it or the wise make plans against it.
-- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War
There is no such rule because checking legality before the action is done is the only possible time to do it. Checking afterwards is pointless, and checking during is impossible since the action is one atomic instruction.
Well I still don't understand how the cage checks to see that the creature is entering the battlefield when the creature doesn't enter the battlefield until the cage is simultaneously sacrificed, but I do understand that the rules can sometimes be counter-intuitive and it's better that they function than that they are constantly rehashed to make sense to everyone.
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Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
The Cage isn't checking anything at all. It is just changing the game rules so that what is normally a perfectly legal action (put something from the graveyard onto the battlefield) is currently not possible.
This is similar to resolving Day of Judgment while you control a human and Angelic Overseer; only the human will be destroyed, because at the moment the action "destroy all creatures" is performed, it's only possible to destroy the creature that is not currently indestructible (though immediately afterward, the Angel will no longer be indestructible, the action has already been performed).
Because you're performing a single action -- "Simultaneously sacrifice the targeted artifact and return the targeted artifact card to the battlefield" -- you look to see how much of that is possible before you do it. Since it's not possible to return a card from the graveyard to the battlefield, all you can do is sacrifice the targeted artifact (which coincidentally is the Cage itself, though the answer would be the same if a different artifact were targeted while the Cage is on the field).
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"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
-- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War
Since Goblin Welder's ability only looks to see if the both targets are still legal, it doesn't care that its ability can't do something to both targets legally. So it will continue to resolve after the check (since the targets are indeed legal), and it will do as much as possible. The artifact on the battlefield will be sacrificed and the artifact in the graveyard will just remain there, since putting it onto the battlefield from the graveyard is an impossible action.
It will work this way because the actions are simultaneous. At the moment you would try to put the artifact card from the graveyard to the battlefield, that's not a legal action, even though it would be legal immediately after you sacrifice the Cage. It works the same way as replacement effects, which must apply before the event actually occurs to modify that event; only in this case, it's a change of game rules that is in effect at the moment the event would occur.
This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
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EDIT: just noticed that the artifact you targeted on the field was the Cage. Same answer though.
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
That was my thought. What's the reason the Oracle wording hasn't been changed back to use "exchange" since that's what's printed on the card?
EDIT: okay bimmerbot, thanks for that.
-- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War
And you would be wrong.
Sacrificing the Cage and putting the artifact creature onto the battlefield is done as one simultaneous action. Before you can do any of it, you have to determine how much of it is possible. At that moment in time, the Cage is still on the battlefield, so it says that putting the artifact creature onto the battlefield is impossible.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Polymorph works differently, because the actions are sequential. First, you sacrifice the Cage (so it no longer applies), then you flip into the Blightsteel. With a simultaneous action (like Welder, which is unique), it has to work differently. Before you perform the event (sacrifice Cage, put an artifact form the grave to the field), the Cage is applying a change in the game rules, such that putting the card from the grave to the field is not legal. So when you perform the actual event, the only legal part of the event is to sacrifice the Cage.
This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
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I would greatly appreciate it if you could cite this from the comp rules. It does not sound like anything I've ever heard of.
You're welcome.
The rules for Exchange include this:
The functional difference is that you can target an artifact on the battlefield not owned by the player who controls it, and the ability can still resolve.
This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
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There is no such rule because checking legality before the action is done is the only possible time to do it. Checking afterwards is pointless, and checking during is impossible since the action is one atomic instruction.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
-- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War
Well I still don't understand how the cage checks to see that the creature is entering the battlefield when the creature doesn't enter the battlefield until the cage is simultaneously sacrificed, but I do understand that the rules can sometimes be counter-intuitive and it's better that they function than that they are constantly rehashed to make sense to everyone.
This is similar to resolving Day of Judgment while you control a human and Angelic Overseer; only the human will be destroyed, because at the moment the action "destroy all creatures" is performed, it's only possible to destroy the creature that is not currently indestructible (though immediately afterward, the Angel will no longer be indestructible, the action has already been performed).
Because you're performing a single action -- "Simultaneously sacrifice the targeted artifact and return the targeted artifact card to the battlefield" -- you look to see how much of that is possible before you do it. Since it's not possible to return a card from the graveyard to the battlefield, all you can do is sacrifice the targeted artifact (which coincidentally is the Cage itself, though the answer would be the same if a different artifact were targeted while the Cage is on the field).
This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules