Declaring an attack is a typical shortcut for passing Priority in the main phase to move to the next phase.
My question arises from an opponent floating mana during your main phase, if you declare an attack, passing priority, to make them use the mana or lose it, if they choose to perform an action before switching the phase, does that count as a change in board state to stop the shortcut, allowing you to play sorceries again before actually going into the combat phase?
Or does the shortcut hold, and consider you passing priority for the rest of the phase, and you have to declare simply passing priority, not "Declaring Attack" in order to regain priority after they use their mana (if they do)?
I usually say "Going into attack phase" every turn, even if nothing's floating.
If you just move to attackers, and they want to do something with your main phase priority, you absolutely get priority after they do something. You're also not committed to attacking with the creatures you previously indicated you were going to attack with.
Yeah. By taking an action, they're declining your shortcut. The game stays in the Precombat Main Phase.
Thank You.
I thought this was the case, but a stray comment led me to believe that the shortcut equated to continuously passing priority until the combat phase. In retrospect I think the person may have instead been talking about a separate shortcut on MTGO.
I wanted to know if I had to change my terminology while playing, to simply saying "I pass priority," as that would be rather more annoying.
Declaring an attack is a typical shortcut for passing Priority in the main phase to move to the next phase.
I want to make sure we're clear on the "standard shortcut". Per the Magic Tournament Rules, Section 4.2:
A statement such as "I'm ready for combat" or "Declare attackers?" offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify otherwise.
While that may be the "standard shortcut", obviously more unique situations will have to consider the facts of that situation. Especially if there is genuine confusion about what step/phase the players are in or believe they are in.
My question arises from an opponent floating mana during your main phase, if you declare an attack, passing priority, to make them use the mana or lose it, if they choose to perform an action before switching the phase, does that count as a change in board state to stop the shortcut, allowing you to play sorceries again before actually going into the combat phase?
To be clear: The intent of the shortcut is not meant to be used to deny a person an opportunity to act, or otherwise to use certain resources. It is a means to ensure that if the players have differing perceptions of where in the turn they are.
If the player were to decide to cast a spell and use mana still in his or her pool, I'd see no reason the shortcut applies above. Because there is some kind of deviation. Certainly, it hasn't been clearly explained, but it's not precisely the "standard shortcut" because of the "mana in pool" wrinkle.
But, that's the kind of thing we'd prefer to have the players be perfectly clear and explicit on.
Or does the shortcut hold, and consider you passing priority for the rest of the phase, and you have to declare simply passing priority, not "Declaring Attack" in order to regain priority after they use their mana (if they do)?
If a player interrupts a shortcut, you're not held to that shortcut. You can do something else and then proceed accordingly. Again, that's subject to the specific elements of the situation, which may differ on a case-by-case basis. But, an interruption of a shortcut applies to both players. You aren't held to the same shortcut your opponent interrupts. (For example, the "Persecute naming X." "In response..." shortcut.)
I want to make sure we're clear on the "standard shortcut". Per the Magic Tournament Rules, Section 4.2:
A statement such as "I'm ready for combat" or "Declare attackers?" offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify otherwise.
This is exactly what I meant. Typically, when I decide to pass priority from the pre-combat main phase to the combat phase, I state: "Declare Attack?"
The question in this regard is the opponent has some amount of mana floating in the pool, example, tapping a Gilded Lotus for blue mana in response to me targeting it with a shatter.
I now wish to play a creature without that mana available (so as to not be there for counterspells), and so wish to pass priority, so that they must either use the mana on an action, or move to the combat phase, and have the mana empty from the mana pool.
If they choose to cast a spell, would that break the shortcut of passing priority, leaving me in the pre-combat main phase, and allow me to play Ambush Party.
Obviously, if they agree to pass priority, then it is moved to the combat phase, and we proceed from there.
The question arises from the underlined part about continuously passing priority. Typically, causing an action within a shortcut causes the shortcut to not need to be upheld. However, the wording "keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step" is rather strange (I feel), and another comment I read (which I can't seem to find anymore) caused me to doubt the shortcut being interrupted.
To be clear: The intent of the shortcut is not meant to be used to deny a person an opportunity to act, or otherwise to use certain resources. It is a means to ensure that if the players have differing perceptions of where in the turn they are.
Precisely, my declaring an attack in this situation signals that I am ready to move to the next phase. My question was if I am held to that decision if the opponent responds. I felt no, as denying responses would be rather odd, but felt I had run into a conflicting statement, and wanted verification. The statement interpreted the "Declare Attack" shortcut as having to continuously pass priority on an empty stack or something like that. It seemed odd, and rather counter-intuitive.
If the player were to decide to cast a spell and use mana still in his or her pool, I'd see no reason the shortcut applies above. Because there is some kind of deviation.
If a player interrupts a shortcut, you're not held to that shortcut. You can do something else and then proceed accordingly. Again, that's subject to the specific elements of the situation, which may differ on a case-by-case basis. But, an interruption of a shortcut applies to both players. You aren't held to the same shortcut your opponent interrupts. (For example, the "Persecute naming X." "In response..." shortcut.)
An excellently phrased answer. My specific confusion though was the wording of "Keep Passing Priority."
The question in this regard is the opponent has some amount of mana floating in the pool, example, tapping a Gilded Lotus for blue mana in response to me targeting it with a shatter.
I now wish to play a creature without that mana available (so as to not be there for counterspells), and so wish to pass priority, so that they must either use the mana on an action, or move to the combat phase, and have the mana empty from the mana pool.
If they choose to cast a spell, would that break the shortcut of passing priority, leaving me in the pre-combat main phase, and allow me to play Ambush Party.
I think it would have to depend on the circumstances. But if you are the one specifically taking the action, then you'll need to be specific on where you want to end up and what's going on. Again, if you want to do something in your beginning of combat step, you'll need to be clear on that's what you're trying to do. It's a bit of a narrow situation you're describing, but if you want to deviate from the standard shortcut, you just need to be clear on where in the turn you want to be and what is going on.
But, if you don't declare any kind of alternate, simply pass and they pass as well, then we're moving to declare attackers.
The question arises from the underlined part about continuously passing priority. Typically, causing an action within a shortcut causes the shortcut to not need to be upheld. However, the wording "keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step" is rather strange (I feel), and another comment I read (which I can't seem to find anymore) caused me to doubt the shortcut being interrupted.
The wording simply represents that there might be multiple steps/phases being shortcut through. For example, I draw for turn and go "Declare attacks?" In which case, that's passes for the draw step, precombat main phase, and at least a pass from me in the beginning of combat step. Five in all.
I have a similar question as the OP. I was playing against someone that had out the non-human tapper and had the mana to pay the :1mana:. I'm on my turn and ready to attack and say "Combat" and he says "Okay". I wait a bit and start declaring my attackers and that point wants to tap one of my creatures that I tapped to attack with. Did he pass that chance up once I started attacking or should have I said sometime that meant I was moving to Declare Attackers?
He passed his chance. When you declared your intent to enter combat, then he says "Okay", that is him passing priority in the beginning of combat step, so the game moves to the declare attackers step. That's where you declare attackers before anyone gets priority again. By the time he gets a chance to tap an attacking creature, it won't do anything since the creatures are already attacking.
What he was doing was trying to get information about what you're going to attack with before he decides what to tap. It is probably a simple misunderstanding of the tournament shortcut and/or the turn structure.
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He passed his chance. When you declared your intent to enter combat, then he says "Okay", that is him passing priority in the beginning of combat step, so the game moves to the declare attackers step. That's where you declare attackers before anyone gets priority again. By the time he gets a chance to tap an attacking creature, it won't do anything since the creatures are already attacking.
What he was doing was trying to get information about what you're going to attack with before he decides what to tap. It is probably a simple misunderstanding of the tournament shortcut and/or the turn structure.
Thanks, that's what I thought but wanted to make sure. I think the guy I played against just liked winning even if he didn't have to follow the rules. He wanted me to announce everything I did, but didn't even try to remind me that his Village Ironsmith flipped earlier that day in the sealed and also waited for me to block that same match and then played Spare from Evil and said I couldn't block with my creature and said he was doing it "In Response to Declare Blockers". Those kind of players drive me crazy.
... and also waited for me to block that same match and then played Spare from Evil and said I couldn't block with my creature and said he was doing it "In Response to Declare Blockers".
You can not respond to blockers being declared. The last chance he has to play spare from evil to prevent blocking is at the end of the declare attackers step. Since he has priority, he has to do it first because you can pass priority and move into the Declare Blockers step, at which point no players get priority until after blockers are declared.
You can not respond to blockers being declared. The last chance he has to play spare from evil to prevent blocking is at the end of the declare attackers step. Since he has priority, he has to do it first because you can pass priority and move into the Declare Blockers step, at which point no players get priority until after blockers are declared.
I eventually decided to just let him rewind to the priority between the Attackers and Blockers step because I did kind of swiftly throw my creature out there after we had to discus it with 2 judges. I kept saying that you can't respond to Declare Blockers and they just seemed to not understand that. I told the guy I was playing against that he needed to say "I had some before you blocked" or something like that or needs to tell the other player he wants to keep priority. I always try to inform my opponent if I have plans before they do something and I think that makes the game run smoother without problems like this one.
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My question arises from an opponent floating mana during your main phase, if you declare an attack, passing priority, to make them use the mana or lose it, if they choose to perform an action before switching the phase, does that count as a change in board state to stop the shortcut, allowing you to play sorceries again before actually going into the combat phase?
Or does the shortcut hold, and consider you passing priority for the rest of the phase, and you have to declare simply passing priority, not "Declaring Attack" in order to regain priority after they use their mana (if they do)?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
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M'saion ulé hraka vair.
If you just move to attackers, and they want to do something with your main phase priority, you absolutely get priority after they do something. You're also not committed to attacking with the creatures you previously indicated you were going to attack with.
Thank You.
I thought this was the case, but a stray comment led me to believe that the shortcut equated to continuously passing priority until the combat phase. In retrospect I think the person may have instead been talking about a separate shortcut on MTGO.
I wanted to know if I had to change my terminology while playing, to simply saying "I pass priority," as that would be rather more annoying.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I want to make sure we're clear on the "standard shortcut". Per the Magic Tournament Rules, Section 4.2:
A statement such as "I'm ready for combat" or "Declare attackers?" offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify otherwise.
While that may be the "standard shortcut", obviously more unique situations will have to consider the facts of that situation. Especially if there is genuine confusion about what step/phase the players are in or believe they are in.
To be clear: The intent of the shortcut is not meant to be used to deny a person an opportunity to act, or otherwise to use certain resources. It is a means to ensure that if the players have differing perceptions of where in the turn they are.
If the player were to decide to cast a spell and use mana still in his or her pool, I'd see no reason the shortcut applies above. Because there is some kind of deviation. Certainly, it hasn't been clearly explained, but it's not precisely the "standard shortcut" because of the "mana in pool" wrinkle.
But, that's the kind of thing we'd prefer to have the players be perfectly clear and explicit on.
If a player interrupts a shortcut, you're not held to that shortcut. You can do something else and then proceed accordingly. Again, that's subject to the specific elements of the situation, which may differ on a case-by-case basis. But, an interruption of a shortcut applies to both players. You aren't held to the same shortcut your opponent interrupts. (For example, the "Persecute naming X." "In response..." shortcut.)
This is exactly what I meant. Typically, when I decide to pass priority from the pre-combat main phase to the combat phase, I state: "Declare Attack?"
The question in this regard is the opponent has some amount of mana floating in the pool, example, tapping a Gilded Lotus for blue mana in response to me targeting it with a shatter.
I now wish to play a creature without that mana available (so as to not be there for counterspells), and so wish to pass priority, so that they must either use the mana on an action, or move to the combat phase, and have the mana empty from the mana pool.
If they choose to cast a spell, would that break the shortcut of passing priority, leaving me in the pre-combat main phase, and allow me to play Ambush Party.
Obviously, if they agree to pass priority, then it is moved to the combat phase, and we proceed from there.
The question arises from the underlined part about continuously passing priority. Typically, causing an action within a shortcut causes the shortcut to not need to be upheld. However, the wording "keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step" is rather strange (I feel), and another comment I read (which I can't seem to find anymore) caused me to doubt the shortcut being interrupted.
Precisely, my declaring an attack in this situation signals that I am ready to move to the next phase. My question was if I am held to that decision if the opponent responds. I felt no, as denying responses would be rather odd, but felt I had run into a conflicting statement, and wanted verification. The statement interpreted the "Declare Attack" shortcut as having to continuously pass priority on an empty stack or something like that. It seemed odd, and rather counter-intuitive.
An excellently phrased answer. My specific confusion though was the wording of "Keep Passing Priority."
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I think it would have to depend on the circumstances. But if you are the one specifically taking the action, then you'll need to be specific on where you want to end up and what's going on. Again, if you want to do something in your beginning of combat step, you'll need to be clear on that's what you're trying to do. It's a bit of a narrow situation you're describing, but if you want to deviate from the standard shortcut, you just need to be clear on where in the turn you want to be and what is going on.
But, if you don't declare any kind of alternate, simply pass and they pass as well, then we're moving to declare attackers.
The wording simply represents that there might be multiple steps/phases being shortcut through. For example, I draw for turn and go "Declare attacks?" In which case, that's passes for the draw step, precombat main phase, and at least a pass from me in the beginning of combat step. Five in all.
What he was doing was trying to get information about what you're going to attack with before he decides what to tap. It is probably a simple misunderstanding of the tournament shortcut and/or the turn structure.
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Thanks, that's what I thought but wanted to make sure. I think the guy I played against just liked winning even if he didn't have to follow the rules. He wanted me to announce everything I did, but didn't even try to remind me that his Village Ironsmith flipped earlier that day in the sealed and also waited for me to block that same match and then played Spare from Evil and said I couldn't block with my creature and said he was doing it "In Response to Declare Blockers". Those kind of players drive me crazy.
You can not respond to blockers being declared. The last chance he has to play spare from evil to prevent blocking is at the end of the declare attackers step. Since he has priority, he has to do it first because you can pass priority and move into the Declare Blockers step, at which point no players get priority until after blockers are declared.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I eventually decided to just let him rewind to the priority between the Attackers and Blockers step because I did kind of swiftly throw my creature out there after we had to discus it with 2 judges. I kept saying that you can't respond to Declare Blockers and they just seemed to not understand that. I told the guy I was playing against that he needed to say "I had some before you blocked" or something like that or needs to tell the other player he wants to keep priority. I always try to inform my opponent if I have plans before they do something and I think that makes the game run smoother without problems like this one.