I'm not too sure, I'm still trying to figure out how hive mind + eye of the storm work. I heard something about the spells removed with eye of the storm are copied by hive mind.
The way I read it you play or cast with new m10 rules the instant or sorcery card. Eye of the storm removes the original spell and hive mind is triggered from the casting of the original spell. Here's where I'm a little confused about the order, does the spells removed from eye of the storm go onto the stack first or the hive mind spells?
Either way I don't see the copies of the spells from eye of the storm triggering hive mind. Its a general rule of thumb that copies don't trigger copies. Otherwise eye of the storm + one instant or sorcery spell would be an infinite combo.
Start adding in dovescape into the mix and my head starts to hurt lol. I'd say dovescape only triggers when you play a spell so it won't trigger on the copies.
Ischotron scepter makes a copy of the spell, therefore not triggering eye of the storm nor dove scape nor hivemind. In otherwords your Isochron scepter phases out and nothing else happens.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, but this is how I believe stuff would work here.
Putting a copy of a spell on the stack (Storm) doesn't trigger stuff that checks for spells being played. Playing a copy (Scepter) does. However, Eye of the Storm specifically asks for a card, so it won't trigger off a copy (either played or copied). With that out of the way:
You play the copy of Vision Charm. I don't think it particularly matters what order the following happens in, but I know there are rules governing who gets to do what when.
Eye of the Storm will not trigger, since you are playing a copy.
Dovescape triggers, and will counter the copy and give you the tokens when it resolves.
Hive Mind triggers and will force each other player to copy that spell when it resolves. These copies will not trigger Eye of the Storm, Hive Mind, or Dovescape (they are not cards, nor are they being played; just copied).
In the end, everyone else gets a copy of your spell to resolve, and you get yours countered and some tokens.
If anybody with more rules knowledge would like to help out, feel free. This is just the best I can make of it.
Edit: If someone were to play an actual spell, all of the above would happen, except Eye of the Storm would also trigger for the original card being cast. Then each copy that player chooses to play from under Eye of the Storm would cause Dovescape and Hive Mind to trigger.
More edit: I am not sure if Hive Mind's trigger will fizzle if Dovescape's trigger resolves first. Your spell is gone once it is countered, but I don't know if that will prevent Hive Mind from making copies of it. If it DOES prevent it, then the order in which the triggers go on the stack will determine if Hive Mind will produce copies or not.
What happens when i activate my scepter phasing out it? (besides blue screen in our Matrix
Is this game a draw?
Eye of the Storm triggers whenever a player casts a noncreature card. Dovescape triggers whenever a player casts a noncreature spell. Hive Mind triggers whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell.
I will make the assumption that you are the active player.
You activate Isochron Scepter. Isochron Scepter copies Vision Charm. You may choose to cast to copy without paying its mana cost. Eye of the Storm does not trigger since it triggers only when an instant or sorcery card is cast. Dovescape and Hive Mind trigger.
The active player's triggers are put on the top of the stack first. Then non-active players' triggers are put on the stack in turn order.
So your Dovescape trigger is put on the stack first. Then Alice's Hive Mind trigger is put on the stack.
Since you chose "target artifact phases out" and Vision Charm is modal, Alice's, Bob's, Carol's, and Dave's, copies must also target an artifact to phase out. Hive Mind allows them to change targets if they wish.
The copies generated by Hive Mind trigger nothing. The spells are copies merely placed on the stack.
Alice has to phase out some artifact.
Then Bob has to phase out some artifact.
Then Carol has to phase out some artifact.
Then Dave has to phase out some artifact.
Then Dovescape counters TrollmenX's copy of Vision Charm and you get one 1/1 white and blue Bird creature token with flying.
I'm not too sure, I'm still trying to figure out how hive mind + eye of the storm work. I heard something about the spells removed with eye of the storm are copied by hive mind.
The way I read it you play or cast with new m10 rules the instant or sorcery card. Eye of the storm removes the original spell and hive mind is triggered from the casting of the original spell. Here's where I'm a little confused about the order, does the spells removed from eye of the storm go onto the stack first or the hive mind spells?
If you control two triggers that trigger at the same time you may order them on the stack in what ever order you want.
Either way I don't see the copies of the spells from eye of the storm triggering hive mind. Its a general rule of thumb that copies don't trigger copies. Otherwise eye of the storm + one instant or sorcery spell would be an infinite combo.
If you apply the correct implementation of the Oracle rules texts of the cards, you will not need a "general rule of thumb."
Copies cast via Eye of the Storm trigger Hive Mind but there is no infinite loop.
Start adding in dovescape into the mix and my head starts to hurt lol. I'd say dovescape only triggers when you play a spell so it won't trigger on the copies.
Dovescape triggers whenever a player casts a noncreature spell. Eye of the Storm allows you to cast copies which will trigger Dovescape.
Ischotron scepter makes a copy of the spell, therefore not triggering eye of the storm nor dove scape nor hivemind. In otherwords your Isochron scepter phases out and nothing else happens.
Not quite. Ischotron Scepter makes a copy of the card. You may cast the copy. Eye of the Storm doesn't trigger because it triggers upon the casting of cards. The distinction is slight but significant. Also you forgot Dovescape will counter the copy of Vision Charm so Isochron Scepter won't phase out.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, but this is how I believe stuff would work here.
Putting a copy of a spell on the stack (Storm) doesn't trigger stuff that checks for spells being played. Playing a copy (Scepter) does. However, Eye of the Storm specifically asks for a card, so it won't trigger off a copy (either played or copied). With that out of the way:
You play the copy of Vision Charm. I don't think it particularly matters what order the following happens in, but I know there are rules governing who gets to do what when.
Eye of the Storm will not trigger, since you are playing a copy.
Eye of the Storm will not trigger not because the Vision Charm spell is a copy but because the spell is not a card.
Dovescape triggers, and will counter the copy and give you the tokens when it resolves.
Hive Mind triggers and will force each other player to copy that spell when it resolves. These copies will not trigger Eye of the Storm, Hive Mind, or Dovescape (they are not cards, nor are they being played; just copied).
In the end, everyone else gets a copy of your spell to resolve, and you get yours countered and some tokens.
If anybody with more rules knowledge would like to help out, feel free. This is just the best I can make of it.
Edit: If someone were to play an actual spell, all of the above would happen, except Eye of the Storm would also trigger for the original card being cast. Then each copy that player chooses to play from under Eye of the Storm would cause Dovescape and Hive Mind to trigger.
More edit: I am not sure if Hive Mind's trigger will fizzle if Dovescape's trigger resolves first. Your spell is gone once it is countered, but I don't know if that will prevent Hive Mind from making copies of it. If it DOES prevent it, then the order in which the triggers go on the stack will determine if Hive Mind will produce copies or not.
This is incorrect.
You will get the Bird creature tokens regardless of the state of the spell it specified.
The Bird tokens are created even if the spell isn't countered by Dovescape's ability. This may happen because the spell can't be countered, because it's already been countered, or because it's otherwise been removed from the stack by the time Dovescape's ability resolves. Hive Mind will produce copies based on last know information before the spell was countered.
but isn't my scepter copy exiled card? If it's a copy, then it should act like a card. I mean, it copies all characteristic of a card...
I know that copies from Eye of the storm don't trigger the same eye of the storm again but spells are played, so hive mind should copy it. then again, each of this copy can be played, so eye of the storm should trigger for new spells. (Thanks God, there is no twincast on eye). Unless
There is a rule that says NO to my deduction....
sarnathed... or something like this. my bad.
Thanks for answering.
Don't take me as a rules guru because I'm not, I'm just trying to explain how I see the situation.
ok I totally missed the part about eye of the storm copying cards versus hive mind copying spells. So eye of the storm looks complicated but isn't so bad. Now hive mind is what confuses me.
Hive mind says whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell. When you use the scepter's ability you aren't casting anything. A copy is being placed on the stack. Sort of like dramatic entrance you are never casting the creature spell or zombify. Same goes for eye of the storm, for example I was to cast fog in this situation and choose to copy all the spells exiled with eye of the storm. Hive mind wouldn't trigger off the copies of eye of the storm since the spells aren't being cast.
Hive mind says whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell. When you use the scepter's ability you aren't casting anything. A copy is being placed on the stack.
Incorrect. Look at the card's oracle text: "You may copy the exiled card. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost."
Sort of like dramatic entrance you are never casting the creature spell or zombify. Same goes for eye of the storm, for example I was to cast fog in this situation and choose to copy all the spells exiled with eye of the storm. Hive mind wouldn't trigger off the copies of eye of the storm since the spells aren't being cast.
Incorrect. Look at the card's oracle text: "Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery card, exile it. Then that player copies each instant or sorcery card exiled with Eye of the Storm. For each copy, the player may cast the copy without paying its mana cost."
You are being confused by the fact that there are two fundamentally different methods of creating copies. One method is to copy a spell, such as with Twincast. In those cases you're right, no spell is being cast.
However, the other method involves copying a card and then casting the copy. In those cases, you are casting a spell. (But you're not casting a card, so Eye of the Storm doesn't infinitely trigger off of the copies that are being cast.)
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Ok no wonder I didn't play with eye of the storm when it first was being played. A card with that much text shouldn't require a fine tooth comb to understand.
Things I missed:
1. When a card is cast not spell
2. Copies are played or cast with m10 not just copied.
The next question I was going to ask was why hive mind didn't copy itself indefinitely. I thought it was hive mind that is weird with copying spells. I thought it was hive mind that was copying copies that weren't being played/cast.
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Vision charm imprinted on isochron scepter
my opponent has hive mind. stack is empty.
cards exiled with eye of the storm:
cryptic command
wrath of god
beseech the queen
remand
open the vaults
Planar Cleansing
What happens when i activate my scepter phasing out it? (besides blue screen in our Matrix
Is this game a draw?
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
The way I read it you play or cast with new m10 rules the instant or sorcery card. Eye of the storm removes the original spell and hive mind is triggered from the casting of the original spell. Here's where I'm a little confused about the order, does the spells removed from eye of the storm go onto the stack first or the hive mind spells?
Either way I don't see the copies of the spells from eye of the storm triggering hive mind. Its a general rule of thumb that copies don't trigger copies. Otherwise eye of the storm + one instant or sorcery spell would be an infinite combo.
Start adding in dovescape into the mix and my head starts to hurt lol. I'd say dovescape only triggers when you play a spell so it won't trigger on the copies.
Ischotron scepter makes a copy of the spell, therefore not triggering eye of the storm nor dove scape nor hivemind. In otherwords your Isochron scepter phases out and nothing else happens.
Putting a copy of a spell on the stack (Storm) doesn't trigger stuff that checks for spells being played. Playing a copy (Scepter) does. However, Eye of the Storm specifically asks for a card, so it won't trigger off a copy (either played or copied). With that out of the way:
You play the copy of Vision Charm. I don't think it particularly matters what order the following happens in, but I know there are rules governing who gets to do what when.
Eye of the Storm will not trigger, since you are playing a copy.
Dovescape triggers, and will counter the copy and give you the tokens when it resolves.
Hive Mind triggers and will force each other player to copy that spell when it resolves. These copies will not trigger Eye of the Storm, Hive Mind, or Dovescape (they are not cards, nor are they being played; just copied).
In the end, everyone else gets a copy of your spell to resolve, and you get yours countered and some tokens.
If anybody with more rules knowledge would like to help out, feel free. This is just the best I can make of it.
Edit: If someone were to play an actual spell, all of the above would happen, except Eye of the Storm would also trigger for the original card being cast. Then each copy that player chooses to play from under Eye of the Storm would cause Dovescape and Hive Mind to trigger.
More edit: I am not sure if Hive Mind's trigger will fizzle if Dovescape's trigger resolves first. Your spell is gone once it is countered, but I don't know if that will prevent Hive Mind from making copies of it. If it DOES prevent it, then the order in which the triggers go on the stack will determine if Hive Mind will produce copies or not.
Altered Cards! Crafts and Stuff!
Eye of the Storm triggers whenever a player casts a noncreature card.
Dovescape triggers whenever a player casts a noncreature spell.
Hive Mind triggers whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell.
I will make the assumption that you are the active player.
You activate Isochron Scepter.
Isochron Scepter copies Vision Charm. You may choose to cast to copy without paying its mana cost.
Eye of the Storm does not trigger since it triggers only when an instant or sorcery card is cast.
Dovescape and Hive Mind trigger.
The active player's triggers are put on the top of the stack first. Then non-active players' triggers are put on the stack in turn order.
So your Dovescape trigger is put on the stack first. Then Alice's Hive Mind trigger is put on the stack.
--- top (first to resolve) ---
Alice's copy of Vision Charm
Bob's copy of Vision Charm
Carol's copy of Vision Charm
Dave's copy of Vision Charm
Dovescape to counter TrollmenX's copy of Vision Charm
TrollmenX's copy of Vision Charm
--- bottom (last to resolve) ---
Since you chose "target artifact phases out" and Vision Charm is modal, Alice's, Bob's, Carol's, and Dave's, copies must also target an artifact to phase out. Hive Mind allows them to change targets if they wish.
The copies generated by Hive Mind trigger nothing. The spells are copies merely placed on the stack.
Alice has to phase out some artifact.
Then Bob has to phase out some artifact.
Then Carol has to phase out some artifact.
Then Dave has to phase out some artifact.
Then Dovescape counters TrollmenX's copy of Vision Charm and you get one 1/1 white and blue Bird creature token with flying.
Eye of the Storm plays no part in this senario.
Copies cast via Eye of the Storm will indeed trigger Hive Mind.
Example.
Alice controls both Eye of the Storm and Hive Mind.
Eye of the Storm has already previously exiled Lava Dart and Shock.
Alice casts Lightning Bolt. Both Eye of the Storm and Hive Mind trigger and Alice orders the triggers such that Hive Mind resolves first.
Hive Mind trigger resolves and Bob copies Lightning Bolt and nothing triggers since it was merely being copied.
Eye of the Storm resolves and exiles Lightning Bolt.
Alice then must copy Lava Dart, Shock, and Lightning Bolt. Then for each copy, Alice may cast the copy without paying its mana cost and each copied cast will trigger Hive Mind once again.
So copies cast via Eye of the Storm will indeed trigger Hive Mind.
If you control two triggers that trigger at the same time you may order them on the stack in what ever order you want.
If you apply the correct implementation of the Oracle rules texts of the cards, you will not need a "general rule of thumb."
Copies cast via Eye of the Storm trigger Hive Mind but there is no infinite loop.
Dovescape triggers whenever a player casts a noncreature spell. Eye of the Storm allows you to cast copies which will trigger Dovescape.
Not quite. Ischotron Scepter makes a copy of the card. You may cast the copy. Eye of the Storm doesn't trigger because it triggers upon the casting of cards. The distinction is slight but significant. Also you forgot Dovescape will counter the copy of Vision Charm so Isochron Scepter won't phase out.
This is incorrect. Copies cast via Eye of the Storm will trigger Dovescape and Hive Mind.
Eye of the Storm will not trigger not because the Vision Charm spell is a copy but because the spell is not a card.
That all looks correct.
This is incorrect.
You will get the Bird creature tokens regardless of the state of the spell it specified.
The Bird tokens are created even if the spell isn't countered by Dovescape's ability. This may happen because the spell can't be countered, because it's already been countered, or because it's otherwise been removed from the stack by the time Dovescape's ability resolves.
Hive Mind will produce copies based on last know information before the spell was countered.
but isn't my scepter copy exiled card? If it's a copy, then it should act like a card. I mean, it copies all characteristic of a card...
I know that copies from Eye of the storm don't trigger the same eye of the storm again but spells are played, so hive mind should copy it. then again, each of this copy can be played, so eye of the storm should trigger for new spells. (Thanks God, there is no twincast on eye). Unless
There is a rule that says NO to my deduction....
sarnathed... or something like this. my bad.
Thanks for answering.
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
ok I totally missed the part about eye of the storm copying cards versus hive mind copying spells. So eye of the storm looks complicated but isn't so bad. Now hive mind is what confuses me.
Hive mind says whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell. When you use the scepter's ability you aren't casting anything. A copy is being placed on the stack. Sort of like dramatic entrance you are never casting the creature spell or zombify. Same goes for eye of the storm, for example I was to cast fog in this situation and choose to copy all the spells exiled with eye of the storm. Hive mind wouldn't trigger off the copies of eye of the storm since the spells aren't being cast.
Incorrect. Look at the card's oracle text: "You may copy the exiled card. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost."
Incorrect. Look at the card's oracle text: "Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery card, exile it. Then that player copies each instant or sorcery card exiled with Eye of the Storm. For each copy, the player may cast the copy without paying its mana cost."
You are being confused by the fact that there are two fundamentally different methods of creating copies. One method is to copy a spell, such as with Twincast. In those cases you're right, no spell is being cast.
However, the other method involves copying a card and then casting the copy. In those cases, you are casting a spell. (But you're not casting a card, so Eye of the Storm doesn't infinitely trigger off of the copies that are being cast.)
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Things I missed:
1. When a card is cast not spell
2. Copies are played or cast with m10 not just copied.
The next question I was going to ask was why hive mind didn't copy itself indefinitely. I thought it was hive mind that is weird with copying spells. I thought it was hive mind that was copying copies that weren't being played/cast.