When Mogg Fanatic goes to the graveyard from the battlefield, you may have Mogg Fanatic deal 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1
In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if they change Mogg Fanatic and other similar cards to be like this. Of course, cards like Scarland Thrinax and Nantuko Husk would be able to be written in a new way that is functionally similar, but there will be NEW cards developed that take advantage of the new rulings, just as there were old cards designed to take advantage of the old rules.
I am a little slow on the up take here...but for example.
If I have a 3/3 and I attack and they block with 2 2/2's I can't use some kind of growth effect like Might of oaks to kill both of them? but instead I have to deal 2 to the first guy and 1 to second guy only being able to kill one?
Same situation with a 3/4 if they block with 2 2/2's I cant Might of oak to keep my guy alive the damage all goes through first?
If this is the case then The might of oaks would only work if I used it after the damage is all dealt (and my creature lived) to pump my creature to avoid something like a shock or a volcanic fallout?
I am a little slow on the up take here...but for example.
If I have a 3/3 and I attack and they block with 2 2/2's I can't use some kind of growth effect like Might of oaks to kill both of them? but instead I have to deal 2 to the first guy and 1 to second guy only being able to kill one?
Same situation with a 3/4 if they block with 2 2/2's I cant Might of oak to keep my guy alive the damage all goes through first?
If this is the case then The might of oaks would only work if I used it after the damage is all dealt (and my creature lived) to pump my creature to avoid something like a shock or a volcanic fallout?
Nonononono...
You can still play spells after blocks before damage. If the 2/2s block your 3/3, you just have to Might of Oaks your 3/3 when you get priority first thing in the Declare Blockers step [I](if you don't, your opponent might pass priority in succession, moving you to Combat Damage)[/I]. Doing this, your 3/3 is a 10/10. You are still in the Declare Blockers step. You get priority again.
Your opponent will get priority at least once before going to Combat Damage, still. Indeed, as a matter of fact, the last thing to happen before going to Combat Damage will necessarily be your opponent passing priority with nothing on the stack (as always).
Something on the first page that needs to be expanded on:
[/INDENT] This is, in fact, mentioned in the blue section regarding combat.
[/LIST]So Valiant creatures enact a damage order system similar to that of the multiple blockers scenario, whereby the blocker chooses the order of the creatures.
My point was, we don't know in what order these choices are made. We can make certain assumptions, but there may be more to the picture.
List tags are malformed.
I am a little slow on the up take here...but for example.
If I have a 3/3 and I attack and they block with 2 2/2's I can't use some kind of growth effect like Might of oaks to kill both of them? but instead I have to deal 2 to the first guy and 1 to second guy only being able to kill one?
Same situation with a 3/4 if they block with 2 2/2's I cant Might of oak to keep my guy alive the damage all goes through first?
If this is the case then The might of oaks would only work if I used it after the damage is all dealt (and my creature lived) to pump my creature to avoid something like a shock or a volcanic fallout?
No, you can still kill there guys, you just have to do everything before the combat damage step during the declare blockers step.
Here is the first example you gave us.
I attack with a 3/3 and past priority to my opponent, we go into the declare blockers step and he declares two 2/2s to block my 3/3 and passes priority to the attacker (me). During the declare blockers step, this is when I declare how I want the damage to be dealt to my opponents creatures and what order. So I declare 2/2 number 1 to be Blocker number 1 and 2/2 number 2 to be blocker number 2 and then I Might of Oaks my creature (during the declare blockers step).
He is now a 10/10 and I pass priority to my opponent. He then can decide to respond (first) to my declaring blocker order, and then to me casting the spell Might of Oaks. After he passes priority it enters the Combat Damage step and damage is immediately resolved and assigned in this order... Lethal is placed on the first Blocker with 8 damage left over and then the rest is placed on the final creature. At the same time, his creatures deal the 4 damage. Damage resolves (with no ability to respond since you can only respond during the declare blockers step) and the two 2/2s die.
No, you can still kill there guys, you just have to do everything before the combat damage step during the declare blockers step.
Here is the first example you gave us.
I attack with a 3/3 and past priority to my opponent, we go into the declare blockers step and he declares two 2/2s to block my 3/3 and passes priority to the attacker (me). During the declare blockers step, this is when I declare how I want the damage to be dealt to my opponents creatures and what order. So I declare 2/2 number 1 to be Blocker number 1 and 2/2 number 2 to be blocker number 2 and then I Might of Oaks my creature (during the declare blockers step).
He is now a 10/10 and I pass priority to my opponent. He then can decide to respond (first) to my declaring blocker order, and then to me casting the spell Might of Oaks. After he passes priority it enters the Combat Damage step and damage is immediately resolved and assigned in this order... Lethal is placed on the first Blocker with 8 damage left over and then the rest is placed on the final creature. At the same time, his creatures deal the 4 damage. Damage resolves (with no ability to respond since you can only respond during the declare blockers step) and the two 2/2s die.
Second scenario is exactly the same.
nitpicking, hoping that i didn't miss anything in the article about it.
the declaring blocking order is just something that happens in the step, much like declare attackers, blockers, and drawing in your draw step. he can't respond to you declaring blocking order since it wouldn't use the stack. the defender doesn't receive priority while declaring blockers, so you can't pass priority to the attacker yet. you have to wait for him to pass priority to you after playing the might of oaks first.
nitpicking, hoping that i didn't miss anything in the article about it.
the declaring blocking order is just something that happens in the step, much like declare attackers, blockers, and drawing in your draw step. he can't respond to you declaring blocking order since it wouldn't use the stack. the defender doesn't receive priority while declaring blockers, so you can't pass priority to the attacker yet. you have to wait for him to pass priority to you after playing the might of oaks first.
Yea, you're right. I'm still getting use to the new rules, but it does seem that once they pass priority during the declare blockers step (meaning they are done declaring any blockers) that is when you organize the blockers and then play Might of Oaks, only then can they respond (because they can respond to Might of Oaks, not to organizing blockers). Once that is done and the stack is clear (meaning no response to Might of Oaks and the attacker passes priority to the defender and the defender does nothing) then it enters Combat Damage Step and all damage is assigned without going on the stack.
I have a questions then...This concerns Exalted. Right now the Exalted trigger goes on the stack and the blocking player can play effects before Exalted grants its +1/+1. Does this chance to respond go away with the new rules set?
Ex. I have Noble Hierarch in play and I attack with my Watchwolf. Does my oppont have the chance to Lightning Helix my attacker for leathal damage before it gets the +1/+1 from exalted?
Thanks,
jon
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
Deity of scars, with a Gift of the Deity on it, (and for the sake of the argument it's ditched the two -1/-1 counters on it), is a 9/9 trample, deathtouch, ('lure') creature.
If I attack with it, and my opponent has three untapped white knights (2/2, First Strike, Protection from Black), what happens exactly?
A) Knights get assigned two damage each, and opp gets assigned 3 damage?
B) Knights get assigned one damage each, and opp gets assigned 6 damage?
C) Something else?
I presume prot black works in the same way and the knights shrug off the damage?
Sorry, just seems a bit confusing to me... :confused:...
Phil
1) You declare Deity of Scars as an attacker. This taps it, and you then get priority to play spells/abilities. Your opponent then gets priority to play spells/abilities.
2) Then you move to "declare blockers". Gift of the Deity forces "all creatures able" including the 3 White Knightto block. Your opponent chooses blockers (all 3 knights must be chosen) You order the 3 White Knight as you choose for this example we'll call them Knight 1, Knight 2, and Knight 3. Then you then get priority to play spells/abilities. Your opponent then gets priority to play spells/abilities.
3) When your opponent passes priority damage is applied in the order you selected. You can assign between 2-9 damage to Knight 1, Then 2-7 damage to Knight 2, Then 2-5 damage to Knight 3. If you only assigned the minimum to each Knight there would be 3 damage left over that you could assign to your opponent as trample damage. Since the Knights are all Pro Black any damage you assigned to them would be prevented. As they took no damage from Deathtouch, then they would live.
The Deathtouch in theory would allow you to assign 1 to each of the 3 knights, but before any damage could trample over you would have to continue to assign damage to the knights until thier "lethal damage threshold" was met. IE 2 each. For instance if your opponent blocked with 10 White Knights you could assign 1 damage to 9 of them (which would be prevented since they have pro black).
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Note this update to the previously quoted forum post:
Quote from WotC_Eric at WotC Forums »
DEATHTOUCH AND TRAMPLE (updated in post #1132)
If an attacking creature has deathtouch, its combat damage can be assigned among any of the creatures blocking it, divided as its controller chooses, ignoring the new ordering rules.
If an attacking creature has trample, its excess combat damage can be assigned to the defending player (or planeswalker) if all the creatures blocking it have been assigned at least lethal damage.
These two abilities don't overlap in any special way. (In other words, the definition of "lethal damage" hasn't changed, and isn't affected by deathtouch.) If you've got a 3/3 attacker with deathtouch and trample that's been blocked by a 2/2, you must still assign 2 damage to the blocker in order to assign 1 damage to the defending player.
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I have a rules question about cards like Vorosh, the Hunter and Crosis, the Purger post M10. Will I still be able to use their abilities now that damage no longer uses the stack? Will I just have to activate their abilities in the main phase after the damage, or is there time after damage is dealt during the combat phase during which the triggered abilities of these dragons can be activated?
Also, I am kind of interested in how Double Strike and First Strike are going to work under the new combat rules, if anyone has any idea?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I have a rules question about cards like Vorosh, the Hunter and Crosis, the Purger post M10. Will I still be able to use their abilities now that damage no longer uses the stack? Will I just have to activate their abilities in the main phase after the damage, or is there time after damage is dealt during the combat phase during which the triggered abilities of these dragons can be activated?
Also, I am kind of interested in how Double Strike and First Strike are going to work under the new combat rules, if anyone has any idea?
Vorosh and Crosis only have triggered abilities, you do not activate them. When combat damage is dealt, they will trigger. Before players get priority, the trigger will go on the stack. This is how it works now and it will continue to work that way.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
Note this update to the previously quoted forum post:
Quote from WotC_Eric at WotC Forums »
DEATHTOUCH AND TRAMPLE (updated in post #1132)
If an attacking creature has deathtouch, its combat damage can be assigned among any of the creatures blocking it, divided as its controller chooses, ignoring the new ordering rules.
If an attacking creature has trample, its excess combat damage can be assigned to the defending player (or planeswalker) if all the creatures blocking it have been assigned at least lethal damage.
These two abilities don't overlap in any special way. (In other words, the definition of "lethal damage" hasn't changed, and isn't affected by deathtouch.) If you've got a 3/3 attacker with deathtouch and trample that's been blocked by a 2/2, you must still assign 2 damage to the blocker in order to assign 1 damage to the defending player.
that doesn't seem to make sense in that old intuitive way that WotC has been harping on with this rules update. if deathtouch specifically gets around the new damage rules, why should having trample force it back into normal damage mode? (i mean, besides powerful guys who manage to get both - they would be a big problem... but how often does that really happen?)
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Okay, so... If deathtouch is now a state-based effect that reads "A creature dealt damage by a source with Deathtouch is destroyed.", then regenerating it doesn't matter, right? Because even if you regenerate it, it will just die again when SBE's are checked again. Or is this wrong?
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Okay, so... If deathtouch is now a state-based effect that reads "A creature dealt damage by a source with Deathtouch is destroyed.", then regenerating it doesn't matter, right? Because even if you regenerate it, it will just die again when SBE's are checked again. Or is this wrong?
from what i understand, you actually have to regen one time - before damage. even if the deathtoucher is dealing lethal, the fact that deathtouch is static makes it happen with the damage.
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that doesn't seem to make sense in that old intuitive way that WotC has been harping on with this rules update. if deathtouch specifically gets around the new damage rules, why should having trample force it back into normal damage mode? (i mean, besides powerful guys who manage to get both - they would be a big problem... but how often does that really happen?)
It doesn't force it into normal damage mode, it just means that each creature must be dealt lethal damage in order to "trample" over to the player, as per the current rule.
Example: a 4/4 trample deathtouch blocked by 2 2/2s. Currently, it will deal 2 damage to each one and none will trample over. With M10 rules, it shouldn't be able to deal 1 to each creature and then 2 to the player, that would make trample more powerful than it is now.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
i just looked at the new reminder text for both deathtouch and trample. it seems like it could go either way... depending on what the definition of "lethal damage" for a creature with deathtouch is. that would seem to me to be 1 damage - which is why deathtouchers would be "dealing lethal" to each of the creatures blocking it by dealing just 1 damage. this covers the reminder text on trample.
i know reminder text isn't a true substitute for rules text, but it seems like a weird interaction that doesn't quite jive... you know?
Example: a 4/4 trample deathtouch blocked by 2 2/2s. Currently, it will deal 2 damage to each one and none will trample over. With M10 rules, it shouldn't be able to deal 1 to each creature and then 2 to the player, that would make trample more powerful than it is now.
it makes trample plus deathtouch very powerful. without deathtouch, trample should force the attacker to deal lethal to all blockers. my point still remains that if 1 damage is good enough for deathtouch, it should also be good enough for deathtouch plus trample.
Deathtouch does not change the definition of lethal damage. Lethal Damage is an amount of damage equal to the creature's toughness minus any damage already on it. The fact that a creature has deathtouch doesn't change this math, just like wither doesn't change this math.
so it is what it is... i still think it's counter-intuitive to have it work that way, but... whatever, apparently.
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Could someone clarify the differences between the combat phase now and what it will become?
The major difference is in the Combat Damage step.
Right now, combat damage is assigned and goes onto the stack as an object that players can respond to (with things like damage prevention effects, regeneration effects, and toughness boosts) before it actually resolves as assigned.
From M10 on, combat damage can not be responded to. In the Combat Damage step, combat damage is assigned and then immediately dealt. This means that any damage prevention effects and the like will have to be played in the Declare Blockers step, before the actual assignment of damage is known. To mitigate this fact, the rules are changed to put some constraints on how damage can be assigned, so that the defending player has some idea of how damage will be assigned and can make damage prevention decisions accordingly.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Ok I am bit confused. With new the interaction of Warp World with tokens what am I missing that is different?
I appreciate them giving us heads up notice but without a more detailed rules some of which they have said in (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a) is a bit vague. There is many instances but will wait later for those, don't want to go into each. However I see this as a nightmare for post-tournaments after M10 changes as getting all the players on the same page of how it is to be done. How will Wizards do all of this?
Have they gave notice to Judges/TOs of these changes and how they will deal with it; will there be a "cliff notes" page they can hand out to players?
a) Tokens that entered the battlefield under your control are yours; you'll "shuffle" them in and reveal an extra card for them. Currently, the player who controlled the effect that created them - even if they are created under your control - is the owner, so he'd "shuffle" them and get extra goodies.
b) Judges have been sent a mass email to say "read that article on mtg.com!!!" - a cliff notes version to hand out at the prerelease sounds like an excellent idea, though! If anyone makes one, I encourage them to share on the forums.
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justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
When Mogg Fanatic goes to the graveyard from the battlefield, you may have Mogg Fanatic deal 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1
In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if they change Mogg Fanatic and other similar cards to be like this. Of course, cards like Scarland Thrinax and Nantuko Husk would be able to be written in a new way that is functionally similar, but there will be NEW cards developed that take advantage of the new rulings, just as there were old cards designed to take advantage of the old rules.
If I have a 3/3 and I attack and they block with 2 2/2's I can't use some kind of growth effect like Might of oaks to kill both of them? but instead I have to deal 2 to the first guy and 1 to second guy only being able to kill one?
Same situation with a 3/4 if they block with 2 2/2's I cant Might of oak to keep my guy alive the damage all goes through first?
If this is the case then The might of oaks would only work if I used it after the damage is all dealt (and my creature lived) to pump my creature to avoid something like a shock or a volcanic fallout?
What I mean is, they're pretty set on changing it, right?
Nonononono...
You can still play spells after blocks before damage. If the 2/2s block your 3/3, you just have to Might of Oaks your 3/3 when you get priority first thing in the Declare Blockers step [I](if you don't, your opponent might pass priority in succession, moving you to Combat Damage)[/I]. Doing this, your 3/3 is a 10/10. You are still in the Declare Blockers step. You get priority again.
Your opponent will get priority at least once before going to Combat Damage, still. Indeed, as a matter of fact, the last thing to happen before going to Combat Damage will necessarily be your opponent passing priority with nothing on the stack (as always).
EDIT:
My point was, we don't know in what order these choices are made. We can make certain assumptions, but there may be more to the picture.
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No, you can still kill there guys, you just have to do everything before the combat damage step during the declare blockers step.
Here is the first example you gave us.
I attack with a 3/3 and past priority to my opponent, we go into the declare blockers step and he declares two 2/2s to block my 3/3 and passes priority to the attacker (me). During the declare blockers step, this is when I declare how I want the damage to be dealt to my opponents creatures and what order. So I declare 2/2 number 1 to be Blocker number 1 and 2/2 number 2 to be blocker number 2 and then I Might of Oaks my creature (during the declare blockers step).
He is now a 10/10 and I pass priority to my opponent. He then can decide to respond (first) to my declaring blocker order, and then to me casting the spell Might of Oaks. After he passes priority it enters the Combat Damage step and damage is immediately resolved and assigned in this order... Lethal is placed on the first Blocker with 8 damage left over and then the rest is placed on the final creature. At the same time, his creatures deal the 4 damage. Damage resolves (with no ability to respond since you can only respond during the declare blockers step) and the two 2/2s die.
Second scenario is exactly the same.
nitpicking, hoping that i didn't miss anything in the article about it.
the declaring blocking order is just something that happens in the step, much like declare attackers, blockers, and drawing in your draw step. he can't respond to you declaring blocking order since it wouldn't use the stack. the defender doesn't receive priority while declaring blockers, so you can't pass priority to the attacker yet. you have to wait for him to pass priority to you after playing the might of oaks first.
Yea, you're right. I'm still getting use to the new rules, but it does seem that once they pass priority during the declare blockers step (meaning they are done declaring any blockers) that is when you organize the blockers and then play Might of Oaks, only then can they respond (because they can respond to Might of Oaks, not to organizing blockers). Once that is done and the stack is clear (meaning no response to Might of Oaks and the attacker passes priority to the defender and the defender does nothing) then it enters Combat Damage Step and all damage is assigned without going on the stack.
Good catch, Camper.
Ex. I have Noble Hierarch in play and I attack with my Watchwolf. Does my oppont have the chance to Lightning Helix my attacker for leathal damage before it gets the +1/+1 from exalted?
Thanks,
jon
1) You declare Deity of Scars as an attacker. This taps it, and you then get priority to play spells/abilities. Your opponent then gets priority to play spells/abilities.
2) Then you move to "declare blockers". Gift of the Deity forces "all creatures able" including the 3 White Knightto block. Your opponent chooses blockers (all 3 knights must be chosen) You order the 3 White Knight as you choose for this example we'll call them Knight 1, Knight 2, and Knight 3. Then you then get priority to play spells/abilities. Your opponent then gets priority to play spells/abilities.
3) When your opponent passes priority damage is applied in the order you selected. You can assign between 2-9 damage to Knight 1, Then 2-7 damage to Knight 2, Then 2-5 damage to Knight 3. If you only assigned the minimum to each Knight there would be 3 damage left over that you could assign to your opponent as trample damage. Since the Knights are all Pro Black any damage you assigned to them would be prevented. As they took no damage from Deathtouch, then they would live.
The Deathtouch in theory would allow you to assign 1 to each of the 3 knights, but before any damage could trample over you would have to continue to assign damage to the knights until thier "lethal damage threshold" was met. IE 2 each. For instance if your opponent blocked with 10 White Knights you could assign 1 damage to 9 of them (which would be prevented since they have pro black).
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Also, I am kind of interested in how Double Strike and First Strike are going to work under the new combat rules, if anyone has any idea?
Vorosh and Crosis only have triggered abilities, you do not activate them. When combat damage is dealt, they will trigger. Before players get priority, the trigger will go on the stack. This is how it works now and it will continue to work that way.
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It doesn't force it into normal damage mode, it just means that each creature must be dealt lethal damage in order to "trample" over to the player, as per the current rule.
Example: a 4/4 trample deathtouch blocked by 2 2/2s. Currently, it will deal 2 damage to each one and none will trample over. With M10 rules, it shouldn't be able to deal 1 to each creature and then 2 to the player, that would make trample more powerful than it is now.
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i know reminder text isn't a true substitute for rules text, but it seems like a weird interaction that doesn't quite jive... you know?
EDIT:
it makes trample plus deathtouch very powerful. without deathtouch, trample should force the attacker to deal lethal to all blockers. my point still remains that if 1 damage is good enough for deathtouch, it should also be good enough for deathtouch plus trample.
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haven't been playing magic for as long as most of you, just about a year. This is the first big rules change I've ever witnessed.
Could someone clarify the differences between the combat phase now and what it will become?
The major difference is in the Combat Damage step.
Right now, combat damage is assigned and goes onto the stack as an object that players can respond to (with things like damage prevention effects, regeneration effects, and toughness boosts) before it actually resolves as assigned.
From M10 on, combat damage can not be responded to. In the Combat Damage step, combat damage is assigned and then immediately dealt. This means that any damage prevention effects and the like will have to be played in the Declare Blockers step, before the actual assignment of damage is known. To mitigate this fact, the rules are changed to put some constraints on how damage can be assigned, so that the defending player has some idea of how damage will be assigned and can make damage prevention decisions accordingly.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
I appreciate them giving us heads up notice but without a more detailed rules some of which they have said in (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a) is a bit vague. There is many instances but will wait later for those, don't want to go into each. However I see this as a nightmare for post-tournaments after M10 changes as getting all the players on the same page of how it is to be done. How will Wizards do all of this?
Have they gave notice to Judges/TOs of these changes and how they will deal with it; will there be a "cliff notes" page they can hand out to players?
Thanks,
b) Judges have been sent a mass email to say "read that article on mtg.com!!!" - a cliff notes version to hand out at the prerelease sounds like an excellent idea, though! If anyone makes one, I encourage them to share on the forums.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
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