Okay so my friend decides to build this deck with Forced Fruition So He eventually plays one and as I play a card, he Draws 7 cards.
So i'm like wtf mate?
He's like, okay let me ask you one question.
Am I AN opponent to you?
To which I reply
Yes.
He then goes thank you and draws 7 cards.:rolleyes:
I know he can't do this because if that was the case then my opponents would have to search the top 4 cards of their deck when they have a mindcensor out.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
Yeah... that makes absolutely no sense. Whenever [an opponent of the controller] plays a spell, that player (the opponent of the controller that played the spell) draws 7 cards.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
i think johnjones is on to something here!
are we playing a lot of cards wrong because i just read the card again and answered the same question in the same way and i would have to say that he should draw the cards
also there is no oracle text or anything that specifies controller of the spell it just says opponents and since we all play each other to win then it should work
I think I am on to something too however, I believe it only works in tournaments because my understanding is that if we play at my house for fun because at my house you're not my opponent cause you're my friend and I like you.
This post does nothing to contribute to the discussion and is only serving to confuse others. Spam warning issued.--Binary
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
Whenever you have a permanent under your control, you have to read it from your perspective. You are not your own opponent.
"That player" - used in English - has to refer to something. What does it refer to? The player that played the spell. It's really basic comprehension, honestly.
Quit spamming the thread.
Please leave the moderating to the moderators.--Binary
putting a card into play isn't necessarily playing a spell
So what about the part of the card that reads "That player" - it refers to the player playing a spell
Also the comprehensive rules state that
In a two-player game, a player’s opponent is the other player.
but wouldnt it be from my prospective because I am AN opponent of THE Player That player is refering to an opponent of which i am because I am AN opponent of another player and Since I played a spell and I am an oppponent i should get to draw 7 cards
No. Quit spamming the thread. If you want to argue about stupid pretend rules, go to another forum.
Let's break it down for you.
"Whenever an opponent plays a spell" - So, this action happens whenever an opponent completes the process of playing a spell. Who is "an opponent"? Well, an opponent of the controller of the card.
"that player draws seven cards." - What player? The player who played the spell, which has to be your opponent.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
but as johnjones has mentioned above what if its not a tourny? what if its just a friendly game between to people? does this still work the same way because this is confusing the begebies out of me! now im thinking about deep-sea kraken and if i play a spell i get to remove a counter as well.
im soooo making a decklist to abuse these cards! i think i just broke the type 2 format!
Cards don't work differently in different settings. if that were so, I would always play Magic in a strip club because everyone is a friend there.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Thanks to spiderboy4 for the great avatar and sig from High Light Studios!
In Magic, the abilities of all cards are stated from the reference point of their controller. I sort of wish this were more explicit somewhere, but the best the rules do, AFAIK, is say that "you" always refers to the object's or source's controller (or owner if it is not the kind of thing to have a controller).
But it is true that they all presume "you" and "your".
When Forced Fruition (or anything) says "an opponent," it means "anyone who is an opponent of you"
More completely, the trigger condition of "Whenever an opponent plays a spell," is cached out by the more logically clear phrase "Whenever something plays a spell such that there exists an opponent of you who is that something,".
Sutherlands, presumably, a rules explanation requires at least the logical rigour of avoiding the begging of the question. You're just entirely presupposing the correctness of your interpretation to put it forward. While it is correct, it no more helps anyone to believe you are correct than to. . . well, simply say you are right.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
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So i'm like wtf mate?
He's like, okay let me ask you one question.
Am I AN opponent to you?
To which I reply
Yes.
He then goes thank you and draws 7 cards.:rolleyes:
I know he can't do this because if that was the case then my opponents would have to search the top 4 cards of their deck when they have a mindcensor out.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Think about it.
When ever AN opponent plays a spell, that player draws 7 cards.
SO if I am AN opponent and I play a spell, I draw 7 cards right?
are we playing a lot of cards wrong because i just read the card again and answered the same question in the same way and i would have to say that he should draw the cards
also there is no oracle text or anything that specifies controller of the spell it just says opponents and since we all play each other to win then it should work
This post does nothing to contribute to the discussion and is only serving to confuse others. Spam warning issued.--Binary
Whenever you have a permanent under your control, you have to read it from your perspective. You are not your own opponent.
"That player" - used in English - has to refer to something. What does it refer to? The player that played the spell. It's really basic comprehension, honestly.
Quit spamming the thread.
Please leave the moderating to the moderators.--Binary
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
So what about the part of the card that reads "That player" - it refers to the player playing a spell
Also the comprehensive rules state that
In a two-player game, a player’s opponent is the other player.
That player is refering to an opponent of which i am because I am AN opponent of another player
and Since I played a spell and I am an oppponent i should get to draw 7 cards
This is a factually incorrect statement
That player refers to the player who played the spell.
The trigger only occurs when an opponent of the controller of Forced Fruition plays a spell, and I defined opponent above.
Let's break it down for you.
"Whenever an opponent plays a spell" - So, this action happens whenever an opponent completes the process of playing a spell. Who is "an opponent"? Well, an opponent of the controller of the card.
"that player draws seven cards." - What player? The player who played the spell, which has to be your opponent.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
im soooo making a decklist to abuse these cards! i think i just broke the type 2 format!
Thanks to spiderboy4 for the great avatar and sig from High Light Studios!
But it is true that they all presume "you" and "your".
When Forced Fruition (or anything) says "an opponent," it means "anyone who is an opponent of you"
More completely, the trigger condition of "Whenever an opponent plays a spell," is cached out by the more logically clear phrase "Whenever something plays a spell such that there exists an opponent of you who is that something,".
Sutherlands, presumably, a rules explanation requires at least the logical rigour of avoiding the begging of the question. You're just entirely presupposing the correctness of your interpretation to put it forward. While it is correct, it no more helps anyone to believe you are correct than to. . . well, simply say you are right.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Wow, I entirely missed the second line of post 6.
Every time I make a high risk post, it blows up in my face.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Creative misreading of cards is not a valid rules argument. Thread locked.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.