I have a friend who plays a human deck that runs a lot of sacrifice effects with Persist. He recently just added Thalia's Lieutenant to the mix, and we aren't sure if we are playing it correctly. Here are the situations we are unsure of (any help is appreciated):
1) If Thalia's Lieutenant gains Persist and returns to the battlefield, does she give each other human a +1/+1 counter before dying to the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
2) If Thalia's Lieutenant and several other humans all gain Persist and return to the battlefield at the same time, does Thalia's Lieutenant survive because she would gain a +1/+1 counter for each human entering the battlefield, negating the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
3) If Thalia's Lieutenant and several other humans all gain Persist and return to the battlefield at the same time, would Thalia's Lieutenant's ability immediately counteract the -1/-1 counter from Persist on the other human creatures, meaning a 1/1 Human creature would NOT immediately die?
Thanks in advance
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-MadMage
I have a friend who plays a human deck that runs a lot of sacrifice effects with Persist. He recently just added Thalia's Lieutenant to the mix, and we aren't sure if we are playing it correctly. Here are the situations we are unsure of (any help is appreciated):
1) If Thalia's Lieutenant gains Persist and returns to the battlefield, does she give each other human a +1/+1 counter before dying to the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
They get the counters after Thalia's Lieutenant dies.
702.79. Persist
702.79a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
The sequence would look something like this, assuming it happens during your opponent's turn. (The sequence would be slightly different during your turn.)
Opponent's main phase begins.
Opponent plays a spell or activates an ability to damage Thalia's Lieutenant and pays the appropriate costs.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and pass.
The top object on the stack (the spell or ability from step 2) resolves. It does 1 damage to Thalia's Lieutenant.
Opponent would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. Thalia's Lieutenant has lethal damage and is destroyed. This triggers its persist.
Opponent would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. The persist from Thalia's Lieutenant goes on the stack.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and pass.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 7) resolves. You put Thalia's Lieutenant on the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter. This triggers its ability.
Opponent would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. Thalia's Lieutenant has a toughness of 0 and is put in the graveyard. It had a -1/-1 counter, so persist doesn't trigger this time.
Opponent would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. You put "When Thalia's Lieutenant enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on each other Human you control." on the stack.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and pass.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 12) resolves. You put a +1/+1 counter on each Human you control that isn't the dead Thalia's Lieutenant.
2) If Thalia's Lieutenant and several other humans all gain Persist and return to the battlefield at the same time
They won't be returning to the battlefield at the same time. Each has its own persist ability, which will resolve individually. Also, Thalia's Lieutenant would need to arrive with a toughness of 1 or more; otherwise, it won't live long enough to get a +1/+1 counter from that triggered ability.
Awesome. Thank you for the detailed response. It seems like our biggest mistake was not treating each instance of Persist separately. How you've explained it makes sense and it looks like we were doing it wrong. Thanks for the clarifications
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1) If Thalia's Lieutenant gains Persist and returns to the battlefield, does she give each other human a +1/+1 counter before dying to the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
2) If Thalia's Lieutenant and several other humans all gain Persist and return to the battlefield at the same time, does Thalia's Lieutenant survive because she would gain a +1/+1 counter for each human entering the battlefield, negating the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
3) If Thalia's Lieutenant and several other humans all gain Persist and return to the battlefield at the same time, would Thalia's Lieutenant's ability immediately counteract the -1/-1 counter from Persist on the other human creatures, meaning a 1/1 Human creature would NOT immediately die?
Thanks in advance
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-MadMage
They get the counters after Thalia's Lieutenant dies.
The sequence would look something like this, assuming it happens during your opponent's turn. (The sequence would be slightly different during your turn.)
They won't be returning to the battlefield at the same time. Each has its own persist ability, which will resolve individually. Also, Thalia's Lieutenant would need to arrive with a toughness of 1 or more; otherwise, it won't live long enough to get a +1/+1 counter from that triggered ability.
As above, they wouldn't return at the same time, and they would need to survive long enough for that triggered ability to resolve.