Hello folks,
In one of my recent commander games a weird interaction came up and I cannot find a place where this has been answered. Player A cast Vanish into Memory on a stack of mutated creatures. Its obvious that they draw cards equal to the power of the stack (so letss say the stack consists of Otrimi, the Ever-Playful on top of Chittering Harvester they would draw 6 cards) and on their next upkeep Otrimi, the Ever-Playful and Chittering Harvester return to the battlefield as seperate creatures. But how many do they have to discard now? My best guess is 12 because looking at rule 723.3c: "If an effect can find the new object that a merged permanent becomes as it leaves the battlefield, it finds all of those objects. (See rule 400.7.) If that effect causes actions to be taken upon those objects, the same actions are taken upon each of them." Vanish into Memories delayed trigger now sees all the seperate creatures and you discard cards equal to the toughness for each seperate creature. Can someone confirm this hunch?
Thank you in advance
As a ruling for Vanish into Memory clarifies, "Vanish into Memory cares about the creature's ... toughness just after it returns to the battlefield". The cards exiled with Vanish into Memory will return to the battlefield as separate permanents (to the extent they're neither instant nor sorcery cards [C.R. 304.4, 307.4]). Then, for each such permanent that's a creature, as many cards as that creature's toughness are discarded (C.R. 723.3c, 723.3, 400.7h, 400.2). (Observe that noncreature permanents can't have toughness [C.R. 208.3].)
Note that in game terms, the "stack" has a specific meaning which is unrelated to merged permanents; namely, the stack is one of the game's zones (C.R. 400.1). Likewise, the term "pile" has a specific meaning in game terms (C.R. 700.3). A merged or mutated permanent is not referred to as a "mutate pile", a "mutate stack", or a "stack of mutated creatures" by the game.
(Observe that noncreature permanents can have toughness [C.R. 205.8].)
I can't find that rule, just this one:
208.3. A noncreature permanent has no power or toughness, even if it’s a card with a power and
toughness printed on it (such as a Vehicle). A noncreature object not on the battlefield has power or
toughness only if it has a power and toughness printed on it.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
(Observe that noncreature permanents can have toughness [C.R. 205.8].)
I can't find that rule, just this one:
208.3. A noncreature permanent has no power or toughness, even if it’s a card with a power and
toughness printed on it (such as a Vehicle). A noncreature object not on the battlefield has power or
toughness only if it has a power and toughness printed on it.
Corrected.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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In one of my recent commander games a weird interaction came up and I cannot find a place where this has been answered. Player A cast Vanish into Memory on a stack of mutated creatures. Its obvious that they draw cards equal to the power of the stack (so letss say the stack consists of Otrimi, the Ever-Playful on top of Chittering Harvester they would draw 6 cards) and on their next upkeep Otrimi, the Ever-Playful and Chittering Harvester return to the battlefield as seperate creatures. But how many do they have to discard now? My best guess is 12 because looking at rule 723.3c: "If an effect can find the new object that a merged permanent becomes as it leaves the battlefield, it finds all of those objects. (See rule 400.7.) If that effect causes actions to be taken upon those objects, the same actions are taken upon each of them." Vanish into Memories delayed trigger now sees all the seperate creatures and you discard cards equal to the toughness for each seperate creature. Can someone confirm this hunch?
Thank you in advance
Note that in game terms, the "stack" has a specific meaning which is unrelated to merged permanents; namely, the stack is one of the game's zones (C.R. 400.1). Likewise, the term "pile" has a specific meaning in game terms (C.R. 700.3). A merged or mutated permanent is not referred to as a "mutate pile", a "mutate stack", or a "stack of mutated creatures" by the game.
EDIT: Correction after comment 3 was posted.
I can't find that rule, just this one: