10/4/2019 An ability that triggers on a card leaving a zone (such as that of Syr Konrad, the Grim) won’t trigger if that card is leaving its previous zone because it’s entering the battlefield as a creature.
Can anyone tell me what C.R. rules cover this ruling? I'm having a hard time understanding it.
Regardless of whether Bloodghast is entering the battlefield or an embalm creature is exiling itself, Syr Konrad is looking for the creature card leaving the graveyard, so why does Hushbringer interfere with the Konrad/Bloodgast trigger?
Unfortunately, there is no solid basis in the comprehensive rules for the ruling you cite.
Indeed:
Under C.R. 700.1, which defines events, "[t]he text of triggered abilities ... defines the event they're looking for". In the case of Syr Konrad's ability, the condition "a creature card leaves your graveyard" doesn't care which zone a card moves to, and indeed it doesn't care what that card will be in its new zone, as long as that card was a "creature card" in "your graveyard".
Under C.R. 603.10 and 603.10a, "Whenever ... a creature card leaves your graveyard" expresses an ability that looks back in time — before that event.
Just as an aside, it's the same principle that arguably allows triggered abilities of the form "Whenever you sacrifice..." (e.g., Savra, Queen of the Golgari) to trigger more than once due to Teysa Karlov (or not to trigger due to Hushbringer), because sacrificing a creature includes putting that creature into the graveyard (C.R. 701.17a).
If this matter concerns you, you should notify the rules manager Jess Dunks.
Just as an aside, it's the same principle that arguably allows triggered abilities of the form "Whenever you sacrifice..." (e.g., Savra, Queen of the Golgari) to trigger more than once due to Teysa Karlov (or not to trigger due to Hushbringer), because sacrificing a creature includes putting that creature into the graveyard (C.R. 701.17a).
Actually:
10/4/2019 An ability that triggers on an event that causes a creature to die will still trigger. For example, an ability that triggers “whenever you sacrifice a creature” still triggers.
This card's rulings are all over the place. Either the card cares about the trigger condition or it cares about the result of the event. It can't have it both ways based on the case by case whim of Wizard's R&D/Rules Management.
Just as an aside, it's the same principle that arguably allows triggered abilities of the form "Whenever you sacrifice..." (e.g., Savra, Queen of the Golgari) to trigger more than once due to Teysa Karlov (or not to trigger due to Hushbringer), because sacrificing a creature includes putting that creature into the graveyard (C.R. 701.17a).
Actually:
10/4/2019 An ability that triggers on an event that causes a creature to die will still trigger. For example, an ability that triggers “whenever you sacrifice a creature” still triggers.
This card's rulings are all over the place. Either the card cares about the trigger condition or it cares about the result of the event. It can't have it both ways based on the case by case whim of Wizard's R&D/Rules Management.
The ruling on Hushbring is consistent with the ruling on Teysa
Teysa - An ability that triggers on an event that causes a creature to die doesn’t trigger twice. For example, an ability that triggers “whenever you sacrifice a creature” triggers only once.
Hushbringer - An ability that triggers on an event that causes a creature to die will still trigger. For example, an ability that triggers “whenever you sacrifice a creature” still triggers.
Neither care about the event "a creature was sacrificed".
10/4/2019 An ability that triggers on a card leaving a zone (such as that of Syr Konrad, the Grim) won’t trigger if that card is leaving its previous zone because it’s entering the battlefield as a creature.
Can anyone tell me what C.R. rules cover this ruling? I'm having a hard time understanding it.
Regardless of whether Bloodghast is entering the battlefield or an embalm creature is exiling itself, Syr Konrad is looking for the creature card leaving the graveyard, so why does Hushbringer interfere with the Konrad/Bloodgast trigger?
So, if Hushbringer is in effect, and Syr Konrad is hanging around, "Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger." Therefore, suppose some creature card in your graveyard moves onto the battlefield. That creature entering the battlefield doesn't cause Syr Konrad to trigger (if it IS a creature that enters the battlefield).
Even though triggered abilities define what counts as an event, this new breed of rule-modifying abilities have closed the book on what counts as one or two things that happen, and how they cause triggered abilities to trigger from them. Syr Konrad would trigger on "a creature card leaving your graveyard", you say, and you say that happened. I ask, "When did that happen?" and you now can only indicate how that card moved from the graveyard into the battlefield as a creature permanent. Every way you point to it, a concrete thing that happened, you're talking about a creature entering the battlefield. Hushbringer says that cannot be a thing that triggers abilities.
In regards to 603.10, that says to look back in time to make the determination, "using the existence of [the triggered abilities in question] and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event." No part of this countermands that Hushbringer gets to see the reality of what has happened in full, or even that the triggered ability without a Hushbringer nosing around would not get to see the attributes of involved objects after the event as well as before. For example, a trigger that cares about a creature dying has to -actually know- that the object entered the graveyard afterward. It's just that, unlike with other triggers, we need to use more information than just spotting the assertion of a new game state as goggle-minded amnesiac - just as the full text of 603.10 says, which extends 603.2.
603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game “looks back in time” to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:
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Syr Konrad, the Grim
Can anyone tell me what C.R. rules cover this ruling? I'm having a hard time understanding it.
Regardless of whether Bloodghast is entering the battlefield or an embalm creature is exiling itself, Syr Konrad is looking for the creature card leaving the graveyard, so why does Hushbringer interfere with the Konrad/Bloodgast trigger?
Indeed:
Just as an aside, it's the same principle that arguably allows triggered abilities of the form "Whenever you sacrifice..." (e.g., Savra, Queen of the Golgari) to trigger more than once due to Teysa Karlov (or not to trigger due to Hushbringer), because sacrificing a creature includes putting that creature into the graveyard (C.R. 701.17a).If this matter concerns you, you should notify the rules manager Jess Dunks.
See also this thread.
EDIT: Struck out a paragraph after comment 3 was posted.
Actually:
This card's rulings are all over the place. Either the card cares about the trigger condition or it cares about the result of the event. It can't have it both ways based on the case by case whim of Wizard's R&D/Rules Management.
Neither care about the event "a creature was sacrificed".
So, if Hushbringer is in effect, and Syr Konrad is hanging around, "Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger." Therefore, suppose some creature card in your graveyard moves onto the battlefield. That creature entering the battlefield doesn't cause Syr Konrad to trigger (if it IS a creature that enters the battlefield).
Even though triggered abilities define what counts as an event, this new breed of rule-modifying abilities have closed the book on what counts as one or two things that happen, and how they cause triggered abilities to trigger from them. Syr Konrad would trigger on "a creature card leaving your graveyard", you say, and you say that happened. I ask, "When did that happen?" and you now can only indicate how that card moved from the graveyard into the battlefield as a creature permanent. Every way you point to it, a concrete thing that happened, you're talking about a creature entering the battlefield. Hushbringer says that cannot be a thing that triggers abilities.
In regards to 603.10, that says to look back in time to make the determination, "using the existence of [the triggered abilities in question] and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event." No part of this countermands that Hushbringer gets to see the reality of what has happened in full, or even that the triggered ability without a Hushbringer nosing around would not get to see the attributes of involved objects after the event as well as before. For example, a trigger that cares about a creature dying has to -actually know- that the object entered the graveyard afterward. It's just that, unlike with other triggers, we need to use more information than just spotting the assertion of a new game state as goggle-minded amnesiac - just as the full text of 603.10 says, which extends 603.2.
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