Hi All, thanks in advance for your help.
As the heading suggest I am running a Unicorn/Elf EDH and trying to decipher the exact interaction between Lathiel, the Bounteous Dawn and Hardened Scales or even Conclave Mentor.
Lathiel seems to give you a pool of counters to distribute, so first of all can you put more than one on an individual creature?
Secondly and most importantly does the placing of each counter trigger hardened scales then? So IE you get 2 counters and for each one you place gives you a second one? Or is it more like if you get 2 counters to distribute instead you would get 3 total at the end of a turn you gained 2 life?
Sorry if this seems stupid but I am confused by the wording on lathiel and haven't found any rulings yet.
You can freely distrubite a number of counters equal to the life you gained that turn onto your other creatures, the chosen creatures can gain 1 or more counters from that, yes. That distribution is chosen when the trigger is put on the stack. When the trigger later resolves, each Hardened Scales and Conclave Mentor will add +1 to the number of counters each creature gets. So to get the most counters, you want to spread the distribution as thinly as possible. You do not increase the pool of counters to distribute, you change the number of counters each creature receives.
Note, that neither the Scales nor the Mentor trigger, they instead create a replacement effect that changes the number of counters. Both do so when the counters would be placed.
When distributing counters among "any number of other target creatures [besides Lathiel]" with Lathiel's triggered ability, you can choose to "assign" more than one +1/+1 counter to the same creature (if two or more +1/+1 counters are available to distribute) (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2d). And when that ability resolves, if you put one or more counters onto a creature you control, and you control Hardened Scales (or Conclave Mentor), that permanent's effect would add one more.
For example, assume Lathiel's triggered ability just triggered while you control Lathiel, Hardened Scales, Conclave Mentor, Honor Guard, and Venerable Monk (for a total of three creatures other than Lathiel) and you gained 5 life this turn. As you put that ability on the stack, you can choose to target Conclave Mentor, Honor Guard, and Venerable Monk and "assign" three +1/+1 counters to Conclave Mentor, one to Honor Guard, and one to Venerable Monk (among other possibilities) (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2d). Then, when the ability resolves, you would put those counters on those creatures, but instead, thanks to Hardened Scales and Conclave Mentor, you put five +1/+1 counters on Conclave Mentor and three each on Honor Guard and Venerable Monk (C.R. 616.1, 616.2).
Thanks! You guys explained it perfectly.
I was definitely having trouble with triggers versus replacement effects and that all the counters would be placed simultaneously when Lathiel's ability resolves.
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As the heading suggest I am running a Unicorn/Elf EDH and trying to decipher the exact interaction between Lathiel, the Bounteous Dawn and Hardened Scales or even Conclave Mentor.
Lathiel seems to give you a pool of counters to distribute, so first of all can you put more than one on an individual creature?
Secondly and most importantly does the placing of each counter trigger hardened scales then? So IE you get 2 counters and for each one you place gives you a second one? Or is it more like if you get 2 counters to distribute instead you would get 3 total at the end of a turn you gained 2 life?
Sorry if this seems stupid but I am confused by the wording on lathiel and haven't found any rulings yet.
Note, that neither the Scales nor the Mentor trigger, they instead create a replacement effect that changes the number of counters. Both do so when the counters would be placed.
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For example, assume Lathiel's triggered ability just triggered while you control Lathiel, Hardened Scales, Conclave Mentor, Honor Guard, and Venerable Monk (for a total of three creatures other than Lathiel) and you gained 5 life this turn. As you put that ability on the stack, you can choose to target Conclave Mentor, Honor Guard, and Venerable Monk and "assign" three +1/+1 counters to Conclave Mentor, one to Honor Guard, and one to Venerable Monk (among other possibilities) (C.R. 603.3d, 601.2d). Then, when the ability resolves, you would put those counters on those creatures, but instead, thanks to Hardened Scales and Conclave Mentor, you put five +1/+1 counters on Conclave Mentor and three each on Honor Guard and Venerable Monk (C.R. 616.1, 616.2).
I was definitely having trouble with triggers versus replacement effects and that all the counters would be placed simultaneously when Lathiel's ability resolves.