Scenario 2: Heartless Summoning + Ruthless Ripper or any morph creatures with 1 toughness. Will their abilities still trigger before when flipped before they end up in the graveyard.
Scenario 1: Ruthless Ripper's last ability will still trigger, but Ruthless Ripper will go to the graveyard as a state-based action for having toughness 0 or less (C.R. 117.5, 704.5f). This will happen well before Cloudstone Curio's ability gets to resolve. (I assume you mean "put an arbitrary creature onto the battlefield" rather than "cast a random creature" — note that casting a creature spell puts it onto the stack, not onto the battlefield [C.R. 601.2a].) Also, you don't choose "another permanent that shares a permanent type with" the permanent that entered the battlefield until Cloudstone Curio's ability resolves (C.R. 608.2d), and neither does that ability target any permanents (C.R. 115.1d). Thus, if Ruthless Ripper isn't on the battlefield at that time, it can't be chosen this way.
For clarity, here's how a related scenario can work.
You cast Shivan Dragon from your hand while controlling Cloudstone Curio, Heartless Summoning, and a face-down creature whose face-up counterpart is Ruthless Ripper. Assume it's your turn.
All players pass, then that spell resolves. Shivan Dragon enters the battlefield under your control and Cloudstone Curio's ability triggers. You don't choose "another permanent that shares a permanent type with" Shivan Dragon at this time.
You turn the face-down creature face up due to its face-up counterpart's morph ability (by paying the corresponding morph cost). Once turned face up, Ruthless Ripper's last ability triggers. However, due to Heartless Summoning, Ruthless Ripper's toughness becomes 0 or less and Ruthless Ripper goes to the graveyard as a state-based action. Then, you put the ability that just triggered on the stack. (In the case of Ruthless Ripper, you also target a player with that ability at this time.)
All players pass, then that ability resolves. (In the case of Ruthless Ripper, for example, the targeted player loses 2 life.)
All players pass, then the Cloudstone Curio ability resolves. Since Ruthless Ripper isn't on the battlefield anymore, it can't be returned to its owner's hand. You can still choose "another permanent that shares a permanent type with" Shivan Dragon, other than Shivan Dragon itself, to return to its owner's hand.
Scenario 2: Scenario 1 and the related scenario above apply accordingly to any other creature whose toughness is normally 1 or less and that has an ability that triggers when it's turned face up, just as they do to Ruthless Ripper. For example, they apply accordingly to Daru Mender or Coral Trickster just as they do to Ruthless Ripper. (Note that the correct term here is "turn face up", not "flip"; only flip card permanents can be "flipped".)
If you unmorph the Ripper, it will die due to 0 toughness from Heartless Summoning. Remember, that turning a face down permanent face up is a special action and you have to have priority to do so. Which means, you either unmorph the Ripper before the Curio's trigger resolves (making it die) or you don't turn it face up before you bounce it with the Curio (you have to reveal it when you bounce it, though). There is no other option. Also note, that you choose what permanent to bounce if any when the Curio's trigger resolves.
If you turn the Ripper or any other face down creature face up and it then has 0 toughness, you get it's trigger, even though it dies before the trigger makes it to the stack.
Scenario 2: Heartless Summoning + Ruthless Ripper or any morph creatures with 1 toughness. Will their abilities still trigger before when flipped before they end up in the graveyard.
Thanks in advance!
There are a few rules that are particularly noteworthy here.
608.2d If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can’t choose an option that’s illegal or impossible, with the exception that having a library with no cards in it doesn’t make drawing a card an impossible action (see rule 121.3). If an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among any number of untargeted players and/or objects, the player chooses the amount and division such that each chosen player or object receives at least one of whatever is being divided. (Note that if an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among some number of target objects and/or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put onto the stack rather than at this time; see rule 601.2d.)
Example: A spell’s instruction reads, “You may sacrifice a creature. If you don’t, you lose 4 life.” A player who controls no creatures can’t choose the sacrifice option.
116. Special Actions
116.1. Special actions are actions a player may take when they have priority that don’t use the stack. These are not to be confused with turn-based actions and state-based actions, which the game generates automatically. (See rule 703, “Turn-Based Actions,” and rule 704, “State-Based Actions.”)
116.2. There are nine special actions:
...
116.2b Turning a face-down creature face up is a special action. A player can take this action any time they have priority. See rule 707, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents.”
117.2e Resolving spells and abilities may instruct players to make choices or take actions, or may allow players to activate mana abilities. Even if a player is doing so, no player has priority while a spell or ability is resolving. See rule 608, “Resolving Spells and Abilities.”
113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to any target”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source for use while announcing an activated ability or putting a triggered ability on the stack checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
In the first case, the sequence would be something like this:
Your main phase begins.
You get priority and case a creature spell. You put it on the stack and pay its cost (reduced by 2 due to Heartless Summoning).
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 2) resolves. You put the creature onto the battlefield, triggering the ability of Cloudstone Curio.
You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. You put "Whenever a nonartifact permanent enters the battlefield under your control, you may return another permanent you control that shares a permanent type with it to its owner's hand." on the stack.
You get priority and turn Ruthless Ripper face up. You pay its morph cost by revealing a black card in your hand. This triggers its ability.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to perform. Ruthless Ripper has a toughness of 0, so you put it into your graveyard.
You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. You put "When Ruthless Ripper is turned face up, target player loses 2 life." on the stack, choosing your opponent as the target.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 9) resolves. Your opponent loses 2 life.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 6) resolves. You may return a creature permanent you control (other than the one you put on the battlefield in step 5) to its owner's hand. The Ruthless Ripper you put in the graveyard is not currently a permanent, so it can not be chosen at this point. If you have another face down creature you wish to choose, you can not turn it face up during this resolution because you do not get priority until after you finish it.
You get priority ....
THe answer to your second question is answered by steps 7-12.
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Scenario 2: Heartless Summoning + Ruthless Ripper or any morph creatures with 1 toughness. Will their abilities still trigger before when flipped before they end up in the graveyard.
Scenario 1:
-You unmorph Ruthless Ripper before the bounce resolves: its ability triggers and will eventually make someone lose 2 life.
-Then, Ruthless Ripper dies, because it's a 0/0.
-Then, Cloudstone's bounce resolves: if you wish to bounce something, you may, but it can't be Ruthless Ripper since it's dead.
I'm new with Magic and unfamiliar with the rulings.
There are two scenarios which I would appreciate some clarification:
Thanks in advance!
For clarity, here's how a related scenario can work.
Scenario 2: Scenario 1 and the related scenario above apply accordingly to any other creature whose toughness is normally 1 or less and that has an ability that triggers when it's turned face up, just as they do to Ruthless Ripper. For example, they apply accordingly to Daru Mender or Coral Trickster just as they do to Ruthless Ripper. (Note that the correct term here is "turn face up", not "flip"; only flip card permanents can be "flipped".)
If you turn the Ripper or any other face down creature face up and it then has 0 toughness, you get it's trigger, even though it dies before the trigger makes it to the stack.
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There are a few rules that are particularly noteworthy here.
In the first case, the sequence would be something like this:
THe answer to your second question is answered by steps 7-12.
-You unmorph Ruthless Ripper before the bounce resolves: its ability triggers and will eventually make someone lose 2 life.
-Then, Ruthless Ripper dies, because it's a 0/0.
-Then, Cloudstone's bounce resolves: if you wish to bounce something, you may, but it can't be Ruthless Ripper since it's dead.
Scenario 2:
-Yes.
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