A1) Both lands enter the battlefield 100% simultaneously. (which rule explains that further?)
A2) I already "control" both lands before their "enters the battlefield" abilities trigger, right? (which rule?)
A3) I can choose which triggered ability goes on the stack/resolves first (603.3b, 101.4c).
So I can choose to "add one mana of any color" from Crumbling Vestige first and then return it to my hand with Boros Garrison's ability.
B1) same as A1
B2) I can return Tolaria West to my hand with Boros Garrison. Same rules as A2 I guess.
B3) Once it is in my hand I can pay the transmute costs 1UU of Tolaria West to search my library for and cast Summoner's Pact. Nothing speaks against that, right?
Case C (just out of curiosity if creating an illegal target on purpose would work here): Boros Garrison Lotus Field
I guess I can't just chose the same Land for both triggered abilities and get away with only sacrificing one land since the second became an illegal target after it got returned to my hand?
In detail:
On the stack comes first:
I chose to sacrifice my only two forests for Lotus Field's triggered ability.
Secondly on the stack comes:
I chose the same forest to be returned to my hand for Boros Garrison's trigger
So I return one forest to my hand before Lotus Field's triggered ability resolves.
I guess the rules would just force me to sacrifice the remaining forest and Boros Garrison instead, since it only says "two lands" and not "two target lands" right? And even if the text said "target" it would not work I assume?
A1) Both lands enter the battlefield 100% simultaneously. (which rule explains that further?)
A2) I already "control" both lands before their "enters the battlefield" abilities trigger, right? (which rule?)
A3) I can choose which triggered ability goes on the stack/resolves first (603.3b, 101.4c).
So I can choose to "add one mana of any color" from Crumbling Vestige first and then return it to my hand with Boros Garrison's ability.
A1) If someone claims those aren't simultaneous, that exception is for them to justify.
608.2f Some spells and abilities include actions taken on multiple players and/or objects. In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously. If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually. APNAP order is used to make the primary determination of the order of those actions. Secondarily, if the action is to be taken on both a player and an object they control or on multiple objects controlled by the same player, the player who controls the resolving spell or ability chooses the relative order of those actions.
Example: Blatant Thievery says “For each opponent, gain control of target permanent that player controls.” As Blatant Thievery resolves, its controller gains control of all permanents chosen as targets simultaneously.
Example: Soulfire Eruption says, in part, “Choose any number of target creatures, planeswalkers, and/or players. For each of them, exile the top card of your library, then Soulfire Eruption deals damage equal to that card’s converted mana cost to that permanent or player.” A player casts Soulfire Eruption targeting an opponent and a creature that opponent controls. As Soulfire Eruption resolves, the player can’t exile the top card of their library multiple times at the same time, so they first choose which target they are considering, then they exile the top card of their library, and finally Soulfire Eruption deals damage to that target. They then repeat this process for the remaining target.
A2) They are on the battlefield at the time that ability triggers (otherwise, why did it trigger?). Therefore, they each have a controller. If that controller isn't you, who then?
603.6a Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, “When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.
110.2. A permanent’s owner is the same as the owner of the card that represents it (unless it’s a token; see rule 111.2). A permanent’s controller is, by default, the player under whose control it entered the battlefield. Every permanent has a controller.
A3) Yes, by putting Boros Garrison's ability on the stack first.
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
405. Stack
405.1. When a spell is cast, the physical card is put on the stack (see rule 601.2a). When an ability is activated or triggers, it goes on top of the stack without any card associated with it (see rules 602.2a and 603.3).
405.5. When all players pass in succession, the top (last-added) spell or ability on the stack resolves. If the stack is empty when all players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins.
B1) same as A1
B2) I can return Tolaria West to my hand with Boros Garrison. Same rules as A2 I guess.
B3) Once it is in my hand I can pay the transmute costs 1UU of Tolaria West to search my library for and cast Summoner's Pact. Nothing speaks against that, right?
B1) same as A1
B2) It's a land you control. Sure, why not?
B3) Yes, neither the rules for transmute nor discard care how long the card has been in your hand.
Case C (just out of curiosity if creating an illegal target on purpose would work here): Boros Garrison Lotus Field
I guess I can't just chose the same Land for both triggered abilities and get away with only sacrificing one land since the second became an illegal target after it got returned to my hand?
In detail:
On the stack comes first:
I chose to sacrifice my only two forests for Lotus Field's triggered ability.
Secondly on the stack comes:
I chose the same forest to be returned to my hand for Boros Garrison's trigger
So I return one forest to my hand before Lotus Field's triggered ability resolves.
I guess the rules would just force me to sacrifice the remaining forest and Boros Garrison instead, since it only says "two lands" and not "two target lands" right? And even if the text said "target" it would not work I assume?
Thank you!
You can't "choose the same forest", because it isn't there anymore. If it specified a "target", that would work, because target decisions are made while putting the object on the stack.
608.2d If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can’t choose an option that’s illegal or impossible, with the exception that having a library with no cards in it doesn’t make drawing a card an impossible action (see rule 121.3). If an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among any number of untargeted players and/or objects, the player chooses the amount and division such that each chosen player or object receives at least one of whatever is being divided. (Note that if an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among some number of target objects and/or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put onto the stack rather than at this time; see rule 601.2d.)
First, one detail on question B3: If the Primeval Titan's ability triggered from attacking, you would have to wait until after the combat phase before you can use transmute.
Case C (just out of curiosity if creating an illegal target on purpose would work here): Boros Garrison Lotus Field
I guess I can't just chose the same Land for both triggered abilities and get away with only sacrificing one land since the second became an illegal target after it got returned to my hand?
In detail:
On the stack comes first:
I chose to sacrifice my only two forests for Lotus Field's triggered ability.
Secondly on the stack comes:
I chose the same forest to be returned to my hand for Boros Garrison's trigger
So I return one forest to my hand before Lotus Field's triggered ability resolves.
I guess the rules would just force me to sacrifice the remaining forest and Boros Garrison instead, since it only says "two lands" and not "two target lands" right? And even if the text said "target" it would not work I assume?
A little more detail, because I initially wasn't certain of the sequence you intended and I misread Lotus Vale. Lotus Vale does not have a triggered ability.
108.1. Use the Oracle card reference when determining a card’s wording. A card’s Oracle text can be found using the Gatherer card database at Gatherer.Wizards.com .
"If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard."
I'm not going to specify the sequence that led to Primeval Titan's ability triggering.
The "Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library." ability resolves. When you search your library, you choose Boros Garrison and Lotus Vale. You put them onto the battlefield tapped, right after sacrificing two untapped Forests for Lotus Vale's replacement effect. You shuffle your library.
You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. (If there were multiples at this point, you would get to choose the order regardless of whether they actually triggered simultaneously.) You put "When Boros Garrison enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand." on the stack. (You might have some idea what land you'll be returning, but the game does not accept a decision at this time.)
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3) resolves. You return a land you control to its owner's hand. This might be Boros Garrison, this might be Lotus Vale, this might be one you tapped when putting Primeval Titan onto the battlefield (whenever that happened). This can not be a card that is currently in the graveyard after being sacrificed in step 2.
You get priority and ....
Edit: As WizardMN pointed out, I read the card correctly the first time.
A little more detail, because I initially wasn't certain of the sequence you intended.
I'm not going to specify the sequence that led to Primeval Titan's ability triggering.
The "Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library." ability resolves. When you search your library, you choose Boros Garrison and Lotus Field. You put them onto the battlefield tapped, triggering both abilities. You shuffle your library.
You would get priority, but there are triggered abilities to put on the stack. You get to choose the order regardless of whether they actually triggered simultaneously. A) You put "When Lotus Field enters the battlefield, sacrifice two lands." on the stack. B) You put "When Boros Garrison enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand." on the stack. (You might have some idea what lands you'll be sacrificing and returning, but the game does not accept a decision at this time.)
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3B) resolves. You return a land you control to its owner's hand. This might be Boros Garrison, this might be Lotus Field, this might be a Forest or other land you tapped when putting Primeval Titan onto the battlefield (whenever that happened). You apparently choose a Forest.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3A) resolves. You sacrifice two lands you control. These might include Boros Garrison, Lotus Field, or a Forest or other land you tapped when putting Primeval Titan onto the battlefield (whenever that happened). This can not include a card that is currently in your hand after being over there in step 6. Anyway, you still have at least 3 lands, so now you choose and sacrifice 2 of them.
If Lotus Field's ability had targets, they would have been locked in at step 3A. There are effects that would explicitly let you change a target, but a second thought or even "a target is gone" would not be enough for that.
A little more detail, because I initially wasn't certain of the sequence you intended and I misread Lotus Vale. Lotus Vale does not have a triggered ability.
108.1. Use the Oracle card reference when determining a card’s wording. A card’s Oracle text can be found using the Gatherer card database at Gatherer.Wizards.com .
"If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard."
I'm not going to specify the sequence that led to Primeval Titan's ability triggering.
The "Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library." ability resolves. When you search your library, you choose Boros Garrison and Lotus Vale. You put them onto the battlefield tapped, right after sacrificing two untapped Forests for Lotus Vale's replacement effect. You shuffle your library.
You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. (If there were multiples at this point, you would get to choose the order regardless of whether they actually triggered simultaneously.) You put "When Boros Garrison enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand." on the stack. (You might have some idea what land you'll be returning, but the game does not accept a decision at this time.)
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3) resolves. You return a land you control to its owner's hand. This might be Boros Garrison, this might be Lotus Vale, this might be one you tapped when putting Primeval Titan onto the battlefield (whenever that happened). This can not be a card that is currently in the graveyard after being sacrificed in step 2.
You get priority and ....
Perhaps this will help OP if they ever want to Play Lotus Vale. But as the question pertains to Lotus FIELD it isn't quite as accurate as that *does* have a trigger. So your initial answer seems correct.
These questions are about (simultaneously) fetching "triggered ability" lands with Primeval Titan.
I would like to be able to state the specific rules if I have to substantiate these cases:
Case A:
Crumbling Vestige
Boros Garrison (or any other Bounceland)
A1) Both lands enter the battlefield 100% simultaneously. (which rule explains that further?)
A2) I already "control" both lands before their "enters the battlefield" abilities trigger, right? (which rule?)
A3) I can choose which triggered ability goes on the stack/resolves first (603.3b, 101.4c).
So I can choose to "add one mana of any color" from Crumbling Vestige first and then return it to my hand with Boros Garrison's ability.
Case B:
Tolaria West
Boros Garrison
B1) same as A1
B2) I can return Tolaria West to my hand with Boros Garrison. Same rules as A2 I guess.
B3) Once it is in my hand I can pay the transmute costs 1UU of Tolaria West to search my library for and cast Summoner's Pact. Nothing speaks against that, right?
Case C (just out of curiosity if creating an illegal target on purpose would work here):
Boros Garrison
Lotus Field
I guess I can't just chose the same Land for both triggered abilities and get away with only sacrificing one land since the second became an illegal target after it got returned to my hand?
In detail:
On the stack comes first:
I chose to sacrifice my only two forests for Lotus Field's triggered ability.
Secondly on the stack comes:
I chose the same forest to be returned to my hand for Boros Garrison's trigger
So I return one forest to my hand before Lotus Field's triggered ability resolves.
I guess the rules would just force me to sacrifice the remaining forest and Boros Garrison instead, since it only says "two lands" and not "two target lands" right? And even if the text said "target" it would not work I assume?
Thank you!
A1) If someone claims those aren't simultaneous, that exception is for them to justify.
A2) They are on the battlefield at the time that ability triggers (otherwise, why did it trigger?). Therefore, they each have a controller. If that controller isn't you, who then?
A3) Yes, by putting Boros Garrison's ability on the stack first.
B1) same as A1
B2) It's a land you control. Sure, why not?
B3) Yes, neither the rules for transmute nor discard care how long the card has been in your hand.
You can't "choose the same forest", because it isn't there anymore. If it specified a "target", that would work, because target decisions are made while putting the object on the stack.
A little more detail, because I initially wasn't certain of the sequence you intended and I misread Lotus Vale. Lotus Vale does not have a triggered ability.
- I'm not going to specify the sequence that led to Primeval Titan's ability triggering.
- The "Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library." ability resolves. When you search your library, you choose Boros Garrison and Lotus Vale. You put them onto the battlefield tapped, right after sacrificing two untapped Forests for Lotus Vale's replacement effect. You shuffle your library.
- You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. (If there were multiples at this point, you would get to choose the order regardless of whether they actually triggered simultaneously.) You put "When Boros Garrison enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand." on the stack. (You might have some idea what land you'll be returning, but the game does not accept a decision at this time.)
- You get priority and pass.
- Opponent gets priority and passes.
- The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3) resolves. You return a land you control to its owner's hand. This might be Boros Garrison, this might be Lotus Vale, this might be one you tapped when putting Primeval Titan onto the battlefield (whenever that happened). This can not be a card that is currently in the graveyard after being sacrificed in step 2.
- You get priority and ....
"If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard."
Edit: As WizardMN pointed out, I read the card correctly the first time.
A little more detail, because I initially wasn't certain of the sequence you intended.