First: If two auras (Elemental Resonance) are enchanting each other, and get phased out, do they get stuck that way? 702.25g-h seems to imply they would.
Second: Time and Tide affects phased out creatures. If a phased out permanent was only a creature because of an effect like March of Machines before it phased out, will it phase in when time and tide resolves?
1. If two permanents are somehow attached to each other and they both phase out, they both phase out indirectly (C.R. 702.25g-h). And when they phase in, they phase in together (C.R. 702.25g).
2. If the permanent would be a creature if it weren't phased out, yes. Time and Tide says "All phased-out creatures phase in", so that it's an "effec[t] that specifically mention[s] phased-out permanents" (C.R. 702.25b), meaning the effect doesn't treat phased-out permanents as nonexistent and considers whether each permanent would be a creature if it weren't phased out.
The comprehensive rules, however, unfortunately don't clarify the case of what happens when a permanent that phased out indirectly, phases in when the permanent was attached only to permanents that likewise phased out indirectly along with the permanent.
So with no rule to tell them to phase in, it would seem like they stay phased out.
The comprehensive rules, however, unfortunately don't clarify the case of what happens when a permanent that phased out indirectly, phases in when the permanent was attached only to permanents that likewise phased out indirectly along with the permanent.
So with no rule to tell them to phase in, it would seem like they stay phased out.
No, they phase in as the appropriate untap step begins, just like any other phased-out permanent (C.R. 502.1). What is unclear is whether they remain attached or not once they phase in.
The comprehensive rules, however, unfortunately don't clarify the case of what happens when a permanent that phased out indirectly, phases in when the permanent was attached only to permanents that likewise phased out indirectly along with the permanent.
So with no rule to tell them to phase in, it would seem like they stay phased out.
No, they phase in as the appropriate untap step begins, just like any other phased-out permanent (C.R. 502.1). What is unclear is whether they remain attached or not once they phase in.
Wouldn't this be covered by the last sentence in 702.25g? "An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanents it's attached to(emphasis mine).
I was under the impression that attached permanents stayed attached when phasing in and out as long as all targets are legal. Is this not correct?
[quote from="peteroupc »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/819607-two-phasing-questions?comment=7"]
Wouldn't this be covered by the last sentence in 702.25g? "An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanents it's attached to(emphasis mine).
I was under the impression that attached permanents stayed attached when phasing in and out as long as all targets are legal. Is this not correct?
You are correct. I didn't pay much attention to that. I will edit my previous comments.
During the untap step, one rule causes all directly phased-out permanents to phase-in. Then a second rule causes all indirectly phased-out permanents to phase-in if their associated directly phased-out permanent just phased-in.
Thirdly, a permanent that phases-out both directly and indirectly is deemed to be indirectly phased-out.
The net effect is that an Aura ball cannot phase-in during the untap step because there is no associated directly phased-out permanent to phase-in.
The Aura ball will only phase-in if a non-rule (from a spell or ability) effect phases-in permanents.
During the untap step, one rule causes all directly phased-out permanents to phase-in. Then a second rule causes all indirectly phased-out permanents to phase-in if their associated directly phased-out permanent just phased-in.
Thirdly, a permanent that phases-out both directly and indirectly is deemed to be indirectly phased-out.
The net effect is that an Aura ball cannot phase-in during the untap step because there is no associated directly phased-out permanent to phase-in.
The Aura ball will only phase-in if a non-rule (from a spell or ability) effect phases-in permanents.
As for the untap step, C.R. 502.1 says: "all phased-out permanents that the active player controlled when they phased out phase in", without making any distinction on whether any of those permanents phased out directly or indirectly. Thus, all such permanents phase in as the untap step begins.
During the untap step, one rule causes all directly phased-out permanents to phase-in. Then a second rule causes all indirectly phased-out permanents to phase-in if their associated directly phased-out permanent just phased-in.
Thirdly, a permanent that phases-out both directly and indirectly is deemed to be indirectly phased-out.
The net effect is that an Aura ball cannot phase-in during the untap step because there is no associated directly phased-out permanent to phase-in.
The Aura ball will only phase-in if a non-rule (from a spell or ability) effect phases-in permanents.
As for the untap step, C.R. 502.1 says: "all phased-out permanents that the active player controlled when they phased out phase in", without making any distinction on whether any of those permanents phased out directly or indirectly. Thus, all such permanents phase in as the untap step begins.
502.1 references 702.25 including:
702.25f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.
An Aura ball is all phased out indirectly and therefore cannot phase in by itself.
According to your interpretation, three years ago when tokens still ceased to exist when phased out, an Equipment attached to a token that phases out would phase back in during the untap step. This is black letter law wrong.
An Aura ball is all phased out indirectly and therefore cannot phase in by itself.
According to your interpretation, three years ago when tokens still ceased to exist when phased out, an Equipment attached to a token that phases out would phase back in during the untap step. This is black letter law wrong.
I have posted a Tweet to seek clarification on this matter from Matt Tabak (apparently, the current rules manager's Twitter account no longer exists).
An Aura ball is all phased out indirectly and therefore cannot phase in by itself.
According to your interpretation, three years ago when tokens still ceased to exist when phased out, an Equipment attached to a token that phases out would phase back in during the untap step. This is black letter law wrong.
I have posted a Tweet to seek clarification on this matter from Matt Tabak (apparently, the current rules manager's Twitter account no longer exists).
While sort of getting off topic, he *is* the current rules manager. At least in the interim. Eli left and Wizards posted the position as being open. It has sense been taken down, I believe, so presumably they are going through interview processes and a new Rules Manager will be announced at some point. Whether they choose to engage with the likes of us bothering them with inane questions on Twitter remains to be seen
Is there even a way for an Aura ball to indirectly phase out en toto?
It seems to me that the only way to phase out an Aura ball would to phase out either one or both directly, with something akin to Teferi’s Protection.
The effects that cause permanents to phase out go after creatures, artifacts, lands, or non-Aura enchantments. So short of turning the Auras into creatures(in which case they would become unattached) or artifacts, how could they become phased out indirectly exactly? As an Aura ball, they wouldn’t be attached to any other permanents to indirectly phase out. If they become artifacts any effect that would phase them out would do so directly.
In short, I cannot think of a way that an Aura ball could phase out indirectly, and if this is the case, a phased out Aura ball would only be phased out directly. Am I missing something?
Is there even a way for an Aura ball to indirectly phase out en toto?
It seems to me that the only way to phase out an Aura ball would to phase out either one or both directly, with something akin to Teferi’s Protection.
Teferi's Protection is exactly how it could get phased out.
Using my example, ER1 phases out, therefore ER2 phases out indirectly at the same time. ER2 phases out, therefore ER1 phases out indirectly at the same time.
702.25g When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that
permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing
out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in
by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.
702.25h If an object would simultaneously phase out directly and indirectly, it just phases out
indirectly.
So, they both phase out indirectly and are unlikely to ever phase back in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Is there even a way for an Aura ball to indirectly phase out en toto?
It seems to me that the only way to phase out an Aura ball would to phase out either one or both directly, with something akin to Teferi’s Protection.
Teferi's Protection is exactly how it could get phased out.
Using my example, ER1 phases out, therefore ER2 phases out indirectly at the same time. ER2 phases out, therefore ER1 phases out indirectly at the same time.
702.25g When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that
permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing
out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in
by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.
702.25h If an object would simultaneously phase out directly and indirectly, it just phases out
indirectly.
So, they both phase out indirectly and are unlikely to ever phase back in.
Could have just read the effect of Oubliette's reminder text which includes a shorthand version 702.25g and h in its reminder text for the indirect effect your looking for.
Phased out permanents will always phase in, doesn't matter how it got there in the first place, unless the untap step is skipped such as by the effects of cards like Sands of Time. As the phasing mechanic is all about ebb and flow, while exiling a permanent is more about placing a permanent in a 'stagnant water' unless through the usage of cards like otherworldly journey or cloudshift which mimic the ebb and flow.
Essentially at the start of the untap step the, if phasing is a factored, the game makes two checks in a flow chart manner:
Is there a permanent with phasing that is treated as though it exists?
A)If yes, phase that permanent out and treat it as though it doesn't exist.
B)If no, do nothing.
Is there a permanent that is currently phased out and treated as though it doesn't exist?
A) If yes, phase it in.
B) If no, do nothing.
And these two checks happen simultaneously.
Oubliette is a direct manner of 'damming up' the permanent to prevent it from phasing back in. Effects like Sands of Time are instead indirect ways to dam it up.
Woah, guess I missed some functionnal updates here! Must have been coviblinded...
I know this is no rule question but, are there many other cards that were updated from Exile to Phase Out, like Oubliette?
Woah, guess I missed some functionnal updates here! Must have been coviblinded...
I know this is no rule question but, are there many other cards that were updated from Exile to Phase Out, like Oubliette?
No. They only changed it because the oracle text wouldn't fit on a printed card. Or, that is most of the reason.
Someone did ask Tabak about Tawnos's Coffin though and he seemed open to it. Though, it sounds like he might not have been completely on board with Oubliette so who knows.
Second: Time and Tide affects phased out creatures. If a phased out permanent was only a creature because of an effect like March of Machines before it phased out, will it phase in when time and tide resolves?
2. If the permanent would be a creature if it weren't phased out, yes. Time and Tide says "All phased-out creatures phase in", so that it's an "effec[t] that specifically mention[s] phased-out permanents" (C.R. 702.25b), meaning the effect doesn't treat phased-out permanents as nonexistent and considers whether each permanent would be a creature if it weren't phased out.
EDIT: Edited after comment 9 was posted.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
This thread calls that an "aura ball".
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
So with no rule to tell them to phase in, it would seem like they stay phased out.
What is unclear is whether they remain attached or not once they phase in.EDIT: Edited after comment 9 was posted.
Wouldn't this be covered by the last sentence in 702.25g? "An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanents it's attached to(emphasis mine).
I was under the impression that attached permanents stayed attached when phasing in and out as long as all targets are legal. Is this not correct?
I think you are missing something.
During the untap step, one rule causes all directly phased-out permanents to phase-in. Then a second rule causes all indirectly phased-out permanents to phase-in if their associated directly phased-out permanent just phased-in.
Thirdly, a permanent that phases-out both directly and indirectly is deemed to be indirectly phased-out.
The net effect is that an Aura ball cannot phase-in during the untap step because there is no associated directly phased-out permanent to phase-in.
The Aura ball will only phase-in if a non-rule (from a spell or ability) effect phases-in permanents.
502.1 references 702.25 including:
An Aura ball is all phased out indirectly and therefore cannot phase in by itself.
According to your interpretation, three years ago when tokens still ceased to exist when phased out, an Equipment attached to a token that phases out would phase back in during the untap step. This is black letter law wrong.
(apparently, the current rules manager's Twitter account no longer exists).EDIT: Edited after comment 14 was posted.
It seems to me that the only way to phase out an Aura ball would to phase out either one or both directly, with something akin to Teferi’s Protection.
The effects that cause permanents to phase out go after creatures, artifacts, lands, or non-Aura enchantments. So short of turning the Auras into creatures(in which case they would become unattached) or artifacts, how could they become phased out indirectly exactly? As an Aura ball, they wouldn’t be attached to any other permanents to indirectly phase out. If they become artifacts any effect that would phase them out would do so directly.
In short, I cannot think of a way that an Aura ball could phase out indirectly, and if this is the case, a phased out Aura ball would only be phased out directly. Am I missing something?
Using my example, ER1 phases out, therefore ER2 phases out indirectly at the same time. ER2 phases out, therefore ER1 phases out indirectly at the same time.
So, they both phase out indirectly and are unlikely to ever phase back in.
Ah, that was the caveat I was missing, thanks.
Phased out permanents will always phase in, doesn't matter how it got there in the first place, unless the untap step is skipped such as by the effects of cards like Sands of Time. As the phasing mechanic is all about ebb and flow, while exiling a permanent is more about placing a permanent in a 'stagnant water' unless through the usage of cards like otherworldly journey or cloudshift which mimic the ebb and flow.
Essentially at the start of the untap step the, if phasing is a factored, the game makes two checks in a flow chart manner:
A)If yes, phase that permanent out and treat it as though it doesn't exist.
B)If no, do nothing.
A) If yes, phase it in.
B) If no, do nothing.
And these two checks happen simultaneously.
Oubliette is a direct manner of 'damming up' the permanent to prevent it from phasing back in. Effects like Sands of Time are instead indirect ways to dam it up.
I know this is no rule question but, are there many other cards that were updated from Exile to Phase Out, like Oubliette?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Someone did ask Tabak about Tawnos's Coffin though and he seemed open to it. Though, it sounds like he might not have been completely on board with Oubliette so who knows.