Say you have a Hydra or something where it's P/T is all +1/1 counters.
Or just a creatures with +1/1 counters, period.
And you turn it into an Enchantment with One With The Stars.
Do you have to somehow add "creature" to its card type for it to attack, or can it swing anyway, without?
I know Gideon (e.g. Gideon of the Trials) combo, with this, leaves loyalty counters and PW abilities active.
And using his creature-ify ability makes him an enchantment creature, allowing him to swing.
An enchantment, even after being a creature transformed into one by OWTS, had a base P/T of 0/0.
But I can't seem to find any ruling that says an enchantment with a counter-based P/T value can't use it's p/t to attack or block.
No one would ever think to use a pure enchantment to swing, so I'm having trouble finding any ruling on that scenario.
Using card tags is mandatory in the Magic Rulings forum. Please check your private messages to learn how to use them. I've added them for this post.
-MadMage
Noncreature permanents can have +1/+1 counters on them just fine - look at Afiya Grove. They can have those counters without having p/t, they just don't "do" anything unless those permanents become creatures. One with the Stars makes permanents enchantments without any other card types so a creature that's turned into an enchantment this way can't attack or block no matter what counters it has.
An enchantment, even after being a creature transformed into one by OWTS, had a base P/T of 0/0.
A noncreature permanent doesn't have P/T.
208.3. A noncreature permanent has no power or toughness, even if it’s a card with a power and toughness printed on it (such as a Vehicle). A noncreature object not on the battlefield has power or toughness only if it has a power and toughness printed on it.
But I can't seem to find any ruling that says an enchantment with a counter-based P/T value can't use it's p/t to attack or block.
A +1/+1 counter or effect doesn't give power or toughness to a noncreature permanent; it doesn't get a "counter-based P/T value".
122.1a A +X/+Y counter on a creature or on a creature card in a zone other than the battlefield, where X and Y are numbers, adds X to that object’s power and Y to that object’s toughness. Similarly, -X/-Y counters subtract from power and toughness. See rule 613.4c.
208.3a If an effect would be created that affects the power and/or toughness of a noncreature permanent, that effect is created even though it doesn’t do anything unless that permanent becomes a creature.
Example: Veteran Motorist has the ability “Whenever Veteran Motorist crews a Vehicle, that Vehicle gets +1/+1 until end of turn,” and it’s tapped to pay the crew cost of a Vehicle. This triggered ability resolves while the Vehicle it crewed isn’t yet a creature. The continuous effect is created and will apply to the Vehicle once it becomes a creature.
Or just a creatures with +1/1 counters, period.
And you turn it into an Enchantment with One With The Stars.
Do you have to somehow add "creature" to its card type for it to attack, or can it swing anyway, without?
I know Gideon (e.g. Gideon of the Trials) combo, with this, leaves loyalty counters and PW abilities active.
And using his creature-ify ability makes him an enchantment creature, allowing him to swing.
An enchantment, even after being a creature transformed into one by OWTS, had a base P/T of 0/0.
But I can't seem to find any ruling that says an enchantment with a counter-based P/T value can't use it's p/t to attack or block.
No one would ever think to use a pure enchantment to swing, so I'm having trouble finding any ruling on that scenario.
Using card tags is mandatory in the Magic Rulings forum. Please check your private messages to learn how to use them. I've added them for this post.
-MadMage
Noncreature permanents can have +1/+1 counters on them just fine - look at Afiya Grove. They can have those counters without having p/t, they just don't "do" anything unless those permanents become creatures. One with the Stars makes permanents enchantments without any other card types so a creature that's turned into an enchantment this way can't attack or block no matter what counters it has.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
A noncreature permanent doesn't have P/T.
A +1/+1 counter or effect doesn't give power or toughness to a noncreature permanent; it doesn't get a "counter-based P/T value".