The main issue I have, is about wether moving a card from the library to the library is actually making it a new object. I can find no rule to support that, though such a rule for exiling an exiled card exists (400.8). A similar issue can be created in regards to the command zone (Derevi, Empyrial Tactician + Containment Priest).
400.8 If an object in the exile zone is exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
So is 400.8 a reminder rule following from the combination of other rules? If so, which ones? If not, is there even a scenario where moving a card from library to library or command zone to command zone, and it becoming a new object/staying the same object would matter? Is the scenario in the other thread such an example?
The command zone already has an analogous rule in 400.10:
400.10
If an object in the command zone is put into the command zone, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just entered the command zone.
As to the question at hand, is there a reason we might care if it is a new object? As you said in that thread, we only look in public zones for Gyruda's ability whether it is a new object or not. "Put the top 4 cards from your library into your library" won't work whether they are new objects or not.
Also, yes there is a reason rule 400.10 exists: We can just take your example: Derevi is "exiled" under Banishing Light and the ability is activated. It never enters the battlefield and moves from the command zone to the command zone but because it is a new object Light loses track of it.
EDIT: I do get your point about the cards now being the same cards that were "milled" so there isn't a rule needed. And I just realized Wheel reveals the card so any effects would know what the characteristics are (I thought they were hidden the whole time). So, yeah, it does seem like a weird conundrum. I would lean towards it still not working since that seems right but I am not sure there is really a good rules backup for that. I would lean on rules 400.8 and 400.10 as examples of intent.
In fact, Eli just added that rule this time around because someone pointed out where it mattered. I would imagine the same would be true for any "zone A to zone A" movement.
701.15c If cards in a player’s library are shuffled or otherwise reordered, any revealed cards that are reordered stop being revealed and become new objects.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/817182-gyruda-doom-of-depths-while-enchanted-by-wheel-of
The main issue I have, is about wether moving a card from the library to the library is actually making it a new object. I can find no rule to support that, though such a rule for exiling an exiled card exists (400.8). A similar issue can be created in regards to the command zone (Derevi, Empyrial Tactician + Containment Priest).
So is 400.8 a reminder rule following from the combination of other rules? If so, which ones? If not, is there even a scenario where moving a card from library to library or command zone to command zone, and it becoming a new object/staying the same object would matter? Is the scenario in the other thread such an example?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
If an object in the command zone is put into the command zone, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just entered the command zone.
As to the question at hand, is there a reason we might care if it is a new object? As you said in that thread, we only look in public zones for Gyruda's ability whether it is a new object or not. "Put the top 4 cards from your library into your library" won't work whether they are new objects or not.
Also, yes there is a reason rule 400.10 exists: We can just take your example: Derevi is "exiled" under Banishing Light and the ability is activated. It never enters the battlefield and moves from the command zone to the command zone but because it is a new object Light loses track of it.
EDIT: I do get your point about the cards now being the same cards that were "milled" so there isn't a rule needed. And I just realized Wheel reveals the card so any effects would know what the characteristics are (I thought they were hidden the whole time). So, yeah, it does seem like a weird conundrum. I would lean towards it still not working since that seems right but I am not sure there is really a good rules backup for that. I would lean on rules 400.8 and 400.10 as examples of intent.
In fact, Eli just added that rule this time around because someone pointed out where it mattered. I would imagine the same would be true for any "zone A to zone A" movement.
701.15c If cards in a player’s library are shuffled or otherwise reordered, any revealed cards that are reordered stop being revealed and become new objects.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)