Ok, timing and/or trigger questions. I haven't kept up on super specific timing rules over the years.
The scenario: I have a Panharmonicon and a Dragon Tempest in play. I then cast a kicked Verix Bladewing. What happens now? Specifically, at what point do I choose which legendary Karox token to keep? I'm assuming that the Verix Karox token is going to trigger twice, as will the Tempest (Panharmonicon). So I have a stack of 4 triggers. I resolve the first Verix trigger, Karox, which triggers 2 more Tempest triggers. These must resolve before I go back to the other 3 on the stack, right? Then the 2nd Karox token comes into play, leaving 2 Tempest triggers. This is where I get confused. It has to be in play to force the legendary choice. So I assume it triggers the Tempest 2 more times. Do I immediately choose one token to keep, or resolve the 2 Tempest hits, then choose, or clear the whole stack and then choose?
I hope this is clear. I also hope, being my first post, that I'm not required to tag EVERY instance of the card's name. If I am, I will certainly edit my post to comply. Thanks!
EDIT: OR, am I wrong about the Karox ability being a triggered ability at all?
You control one Panharmonicon and one Dragon Tempest. Assume you control no other permanents and that your opponent has 20 life.
Verix Bladewing that was kicked enters the battlefield. Its enters-the-battlefield ability triggers twice, and you put both abilities on the stack.and each ability of Dragon Tempest triggers twice because Verix is a Dragon creature with flying. The ability leaves the stack. You put all six abilities that just triggered on the stack. Assume in what follows that you put each Dragon Tempest ability of the second kind (targeting your opponent) above those of the first kind and in turn above the Verix abilities.
All players pass, then one ability (of the second kind) resolves. Verix deals as much damage as Dragons you control to the chosen target (which will be 1 damage since you control only one Dragon, namely Verix). The ability leaves the stack.
Repeat the previous step.
All players pass, then one ability (of the first kind) resolves. Verix gains haste until end of turn. The ability leaves the stack.
Repeat the previous step.
All players pass, then one Verix ability resolves. You create a Karox token. This makes each ability of Dragon Tempest trigger twice because the token is a Dragon creature with flying. The ability leaves the stack. You put all four abilities that just triggered on the stack. Assume in what follows that you put each ability of the second kind (targeting your opponent) above those of the first kind.
All players pass, then one ability (of the second kind) resolves. The token deals as much damage as Dragons you control to the chosen target (which will be 2 damage since you control two Dragons, namely Verix and that token). The ability leaves the stack.
Repeat the previous step.
All players pass, then one ability (of the first kind) resolves. The token gains haste until end of turn. The ability leaves the stack.
Repeat the previous step.
All players pass, then the other Verix ability resolves. You create a Karox token. This makes each ability of Dragon Tempest trigger twice because the token is a Dragon creature with flying (C.R. 603.2). The ability leaves the stack (C.R. 608.2k). Since you now control two legendary permanents named Karox Bladewing, one of them (of your choice) goes to the graveyard due to the legend rule (C.R. 117.3b, 117.5, 704.5j). You put all four abilities that just triggered on the stack (C.R. 117.5; C.R. 603.3, especially C.R. 603.3b). Assume in what follows that you put each ability of the second kind (targeting your opponent) above those of the first kind.
All players pass, then one ability (of the second kind) resolves. The token deals as much damage as Dragons you control to the chosen target (which will be 2 damage since you control two Dragons, namely Verix and the remaining Karox token), even if that token is no longer on the battlefield (C.R. 113.7a). The ability leaves the stack.
Repeat the previous step.
All players pass, then one ability (of the first kind) resolves. If the token is still on the battlefield, it gains haste until end of turn. The ability leaves the stack.
Repeat the previous step.
Note that although the Karox Bladewing token has no triggered abilities (C.R. 603.1), Panharmonicon will still change how often Dragon Tempest's ability will trigger in this scenario, since its effect changes how often a triggered ability of any "permanent you control", including Dragon Tempest, will trigger when an "artifact or creature" (controlled by any player) "enter(s) the battlefield".
EDIT: Correction and clarifications after comment 3 was posted.
Ok. Whew. Had to read through this a couple times. I think I'm only confused about one thing. In your #2 point, wouldn't I also get the 4 triggers, 2 damage and 2 haste, from theTempest for Verix itself entering the battlefield? I don't see those triggers anywhere. Did I miss them somewhere?
Sorry I didn't get specific with the 2 different Tempest triggers. I do understand they resolve separately, as well as priority cycling between each. There's often other triggers involved, namely Lathliss, Dragon Queen, Dragon's Hoard, and Elemental Bond. This deck I got going on is a timing nightmare if it gets out of hand.
Ok. Whew. Had to read through this a couple times. I think I'm only confused about one thing. In your #2 point, wouldn't I also get the 4 triggers, 2 damage and 2 haste, from theTempest for Verix itself entering the battlefield? I don't see those triggers anywhere. Did I miss them somewhere?
Yes, peteroupc seems to have forgotten those. For maximum effect, you want to put the damage triggers on the stack somewhere below Verix's kicker trigger, so that you have a Karox token as well when they resolve.
Ok. Whew. Had to read through this a couple times. I think I'm only confused about one thing. In your #2 point, wouldn't I also get the 4 triggers, 2 damage and 2 haste, from theTempest for Verix itself entering the battlefield? I don't see those triggers anywhere. Did I miss them somewhere?
Awesome, i think this clears it up. I'd want to resolve Verix's ability first though, as Rezzahan suggests. Is there a reason peteroupc has damage abilities resolving first, followed by Karox?
Thanks folks. I know this is kinda simple, but all this is answering other questions too, so, bonus.
Awesome, i think this clears it up. I'd want to resolve Verix's ability first though, as Rezzahan suggests. Is there a reason peteroupc has damage abilities resolving first, followed by Karox?
Probably just to make his post easier to edit as he only needed to insert the missing triggers and their resolution all at the one point of his sequence.
Ok. Whew. Had to read through this a couple times. I think I'm only confused about one thing. In your #2 point, wouldn't I also get the 4 triggers, 2 damage and 2 haste, from theTempest for Verix itself entering the battlefield? I don't see those triggers anywhere. Did I miss them somewhere?
Sorry I didn't get specific with the 2 different Tempest triggers. I do understand they resolve separately, as well as priority cycling between each. There's often other triggers involved, namely Lathliss, Dragon Queen, Dragon's Hoard, and Elemental Bond. This deck I got going on is a timing nightmare if it gets out of hand.
Yes, peteroupc seems to have forgotten those. For maximum effect, you want to put the damage triggers on the stack somewhere below Verix's kicker trigger, so that you have a Karox token as well when they resolve.
The scenario: I have a Panharmonicon and a Dragon Tempest in play. I then cast a kicked Verix Bladewing. What happens now? Specifically, at what point do I choose which legendary Karox token to keep? I'm assuming that the Verix Karox token is going to trigger twice, as will the Tempest (Panharmonicon). So I have a stack of 4 triggers. I resolve the first Verix trigger, Karox, which triggers 2 more Tempest triggers. These must resolve before I go back to the other 3 on the stack, right? Then the 2nd Karox token comes into play, leaving 2 Tempest triggers. This is where I get confused. It has to be in play to force the legendary choice. So I assume it triggers the Tempest 2 more times. Do I immediately choose one token to keep, or resolve the 2 Tempest hits, then choose, or clear the whole stack and then choose?
I hope this is clear. I also hope, being my first post, that I'm not required to tag EVERY instance of the card's name. If I am, I will certainly edit my post to comply. Thanks!
EDIT: OR, am I wrong about the Karox ability being a triggered ability at all?
and you put both abilities on the stack.and each ability of Dragon Tempest triggers twice because Verix is a Dragon creature with flying. The ability leaves the stack. You put all six abilities that just triggered on the stack. Assume in what follows that you put each Dragon Tempest ability of the second kind (targeting your opponent) above those of the first kind and in turn above the Verix abilities.Note that although the Karox Bladewing token has no triggered abilities (C.R. 603.1), Panharmonicon will still change how often Dragon Tempest's ability will trigger in this scenario, since its effect changes how often a triggered ability of any "permanent you control", including Dragon Tempest, will trigger when an "artifact or creature" (controlled by any player) "enter(s) the battlefield".
EDIT: Correction and clarifications after comment 3 was posted.
Sorry I didn't get specific with the 2 different Tempest triggers. I do understand they resolve separately, as well as priority cycling between each. There's often other triggers involved, namely Lathliss, Dragon Queen, Dragon's Hoard, and Elemental Bond. This deck I got going on is a timing nightmare if it gets out of hand.
Yes, peteroupc seems to have forgotten those. For maximum effect, you want to put the damage triggers on the stack somewhere below Verix's kicker trigger, so that you have a Karox token as well when they resolve.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Thanks folks. I know this is kinda simple, but all this is answering other questions too, so, bonus.
Probably just to make his post easier to edit as he only needed to insert the missing triggers and their resolution all at the one point of his sequence.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Yes, peteroupc seems to have forgotten those. For maximum effect, you want to put the damage triggers on the stack somewhere below Verix's kicker trigger, so that you have a Karox token as well when they resolve.