Suppose that Melira, Sylvok Outcast and a few vanilla creatures are on the playing field along with Cauldron of Souls, and someone casts a board wipe. If Cauldron of Souls is used to bring these creatures back into play, do them come back with or without -1/-1 counters?
What about the same situation with Solemnity instead of Melira? Does it work the same way?
Both Melira and Solemnity will keep a creature from being given one -1/-1 counter as it enters the battlefield (C.R. 122.6). Even Melira itself won't be given any -1/-1 counters as it enters, due to its second ability, since that ability even works as Melira is entering the battlefield (C.R. 113.6h, 122.6, 614.17d). Note, however, that each persist ability will get to resolve separately, so that the creatures they refer to will reenter the battlefield one at a time (C.R. 702.78a, 117.4).
If multiple creatures you control with persist, one of which is Melira, go to the graveyard at the same time, their persist abilities will trigger and go on the stack at the same time (C.R. 702.78a, 603.3). If you put the persist ability referring to Melira above any other persist ability you control on the stack, the Melira persist ability will get to resolve first and bring Melira to the battlefield in time for it to keep other creatures you control from being given -1/-1 counters as they enter the battlefield (C.R. 603.3b, 405.2, 117.4, 702.78a, 122.6, 614.17d).
Persist is a triggered ability that each creature gains individually, so what happens exactly depends on how you order the persist triggers (they all go on the stack at the same time and you control them all, so you choose their relative order on the stack). Putting Melira's persist trigger on top of the stack so she enters first makes the most sense if you want as many creatures as possible to not enter with a -1/-1 counter. [EDIT: Her ability is taken into account for herself and makes it so she doesn't enter with a counter.] Then, provided she survives, her ability will prevent subsequent persist triggers from putting counters on the other returning creatures.
Solemnity's even easier since it's itself probably not destroyed by the board wipe (unless it also destroys enchantments) and won't persist if it is (unless you made it a creature somehow, in which case it works the same as Melira).
Bonus edit: Now, if instead your creatures including Melira are already in the graveyard and you bring them back with something like Pyrrhic Revival, which makes them all enter at the same time, Melira will only stop herself from entering with a -1/-1 counte, not the other creatures, since effects from permanents not yet on the battlefield are only taken into account for themselves in such an event, they can't apply to other things yet.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
The above two answers are different in what happens to Melira herself. It is my understanding that she will return with a -1/-1 counter since her replacement effect doesn't apply until she is on the battlefield, by which time she will already have a -1/-1 counter. Please explain who is right.
The above two answers are different in what happens to Melira herself. It is my understanding that she will return with a -1/-1 counter since her replacement effect doesn't apply until she is on the battlefield, by which time she will already have a -1/-1 counter. Please explain who is right.
They don't differ anymore. I was wrong and I edited my post the minute afer I posted, and I thought I did it fast enough not to be caught. Sorry about that.
The relevant rule is this one, emphasis mine:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
The above two answers are different in what happens to Melira herself. It is my understanding that she will return with a -1/-1 counter since her replacement effect doesn't apply until she is on the battlefield, by which time she will already have a -1/-1 counter. Please explain who is right.
Melira's second ability even works as Melira is entering the battlefield; if Melira would enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it, it enters without that counter because such counters can't be put on "[c]reatures you control", including Melira (C.R. 113.6h, 122.6, 614.17d).
I know that if a creature has one or more +1/+1 counters on it, then receives enough -1/-1 counters on it to send its toughness to zero, it will go to the graveyard and can not be brought back with persist. That's because it still had a -1/-1 counter on it when it was last on the battlefield.
Suppose that a creature has some combination of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it, but more +1/+1 counters (such that after they cancel out there will be no -1/-1 counters on the creature). If it dies for some reason other than these counters-- how soon, or at what point, would Cauldron of Souls be able to grant it persist and bring it back from the graveyard? At what point, or how quickly, do the +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out?
Counters cancel each other out as part of state based actions. Meaning nothing meaningful can be done by a player while a permanent has both types of counters, either the creature is sent to the graveyard due to have 0 or less toughness or all fewer counters are eliminated.
Both Melira and Solemnity will keep a creature from being given one -1/-1 counter as it enters the battlefield (C.R. 122.6). Even Melira itself won't be given any -1/-1 counters as it enters, due to its second ability, since that ability even works as Melira is entering the battlefield (C.R. 113.6h, 122.6, 614.17d).
Bonus edit: Now, if instead your creatures including Melira are already in the graveyard and you bring them back with something like Pyrrhic Revival, which makes them all enter at the same time, Melira will only stop herself from entering with a -1/-1 counte, not the other creatures, since effects from permanents not yet on the battlefield are only taken into account for themselves in such an event, they can't apply to other things yet.
A minor correction to these two points: Melira can never apply to herself as she enters. Things like Mowu, Loyal Companion apply to themselves because they only apply to themselves. See this rule (I am just going to quote the same rule as above but highlight the more relevant section):
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Both Melira and Solemnity will keep a creature from being given one -1/-1 counter as it enters the battlefield (C.R. 122.6). Even Melira itself won't be given any -1/-1 counters as it enters, due to its second ability, since that ability even works as Melira is entering the battlefield (C.R. 113.6h, 122.6, 614.17d).
Bonus edit: Now, if instead your creatures including Melira are already in the graveyard and you bring them back with something like Pyrrhic Revival, which makes them all enter at the same time, Melira will only stop herself from entering with a -1/-1 counter, not the other creatures, since effects from permanents not yet on the battlefield are only taken into account for themselves in such an event, they can't apply to other things yet.
A minor correction to these two points: Melira can never apply to herself as she enters. Things like Mowu, Loyal Companion apply to themselves because they only apply to themselves. See this rule (I am just going to quote the same rule as above but highlight the more relevant section):
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Oh my, you are actually misreading the rule the exact same way I misread it at first yesterday (lesson learned: it's really best to put detail in your self-correcting edits ). The thing is Melira's ability doesn't have a replacement effect, it's just a static ability with a continuous effect. Since it doesn't have a replacement effect, the part you bolded doesn't apply to it. The only replacement effect we're looking at here is entering the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter from persist. Melira's ability is instead an example of the other part of the rule that I bolded above, "taking into account [...] continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield". So it does work and prevent the putting of a counter on herself.
It kinda makes me want to facepalm that two very experimented gurus like us got this wrong, but to our defense, that rule and the interactions with Melira that it entails always have been confusing, and they have been modified over the years. It's easy to misremember exactly how it is now; Melira used not to affect herself while she enters the battlefield when this was worded differently, and I think we both misread the part you bolded as that fact that we remembered being true at some point.
EDIT: And now peteroupc is editing his posts thinking your correction was legit XD. Remove those strikethroughs Peter, you were right all along.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
You are correct that the rule I quoted is the wrong one. Here is the right one (with the same part bolded). It is also the one peteroupc referenced in his answers above:
614.17d. Some "can't" effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield or whether it can enter the battlefield. Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which "can't" effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Also worth noting is that the rule change that affected things being affected before they entered (which allowed things like Blood Moon to affect replacement effects before the lands entered) came about in September, 2017 (or that summer). The answer Eli gave occurred after that and there have been no changes to any rule that would apply since then.
I apologize for my ignorance but, as a person lacking your collective knowledge of Magic rules, regulations, and mechanics, I'm having a difficult time following this discussion. There are so many corrections, cancellations of corrections, and changes of opinion in this discussion that I'm not quite sure what conclusion we have come to. (It sounds to me like the final word is that Melira DOES in fact prevent herself from coming in with a -1/-1 counter, and DOES prevent the other creatures from coming in with counters as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I have misunderstood the final conclusion, though.
It would be tremendously helpful if someone could briefly summarize the final conclusions of the discussion above.
I apologize for my ignorance but, as a person lacking your collective knowledge of Magic rules, regulations, and mechanics, I'm having a difficult time following this discussion. There are so many corrections, cancellations of corrections, and changes of opinion in this discussion that I'm not quite sure what conclusion we have come to. (It sounds to me like the final word is that Melira DOES in fact prevent herself from coming in with a -1/-1 counter, and DOES prevent the other creatures from coming in with counters as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I have misunderstood the final conclusion, though.
It would be tremendously helpful if someone could briefly summarize the final conclusions of the discussion above.
If you already control Melira and another creature would enter the battlefield under your control with a -1/-1 counter on it (e.g., due to persist), that creature enters the battlefield, but without any -1/-1 counters on it. This much is clear.
What is unclearA related question is, if Melira itself would enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it (e.g., due to persist), whether Melira enters the battlefield but without any -1/-1 counters on it. According to the Tweet by Eli Shiffrin, the answer is that Melira will still be given a -1/-1 counter this way as it enters the battlefield. (Before I learned about that Tweet, though, I posted my own Tweet to Eli Shiffrin to clarify the matter.)
I disagree that it is unclear. We have a rule above that states her "can't" ability won't work for herself entering and we have Eli confirming it. She *will* enter with a counter if she comes back from Persist. Her own ability can't apply as she is entering the battlefield.
So, as peteroupc says, if she is already on the field, she will stop anything from entering with -1/-1 counters. If she is returning to the field, or returning at the same time as anything else, she, as well as anything else returning *at the same time* as herself, will still be given counters as normal since her ability is not in effect yet.
This means that for Cauldron of Souls, it depends on the order the triggers resolve. If she enters first, she will have a counter but nothing else will since they enter after her. In the case of Pyrrhic Revival mentioned above, everything gets counters on them.
Persist is a triggered ability that each creature gains individually, so what happens exactly depends on how you order the persist triggers (they all go on the stack at the same time and you control them all, so you choose their relative order on the stack). Putting Melira's persist trigger on top of the stack so she enters first makes the most sense if you want as many creatures as possible to not enter with a -1/-1 counter. [EDIT: Her ability is taken into account for herself and makes it so she doesn't enter with a counter.] Then, provided she survives, her ability will prevent subsequent persist triggers from putting counters on the other returning creatures.
Solemnity's even easier since it's itself probably not destroyed by the board wipe (unless it also destroys enchantments) and won't persist if it is (unless you made it a creature somehow, in which case it works the same as Melira).
Thank you everyone for the time and effort you put into figuring this out. It's incredibly helpful!
I take it that what MadMageQc wrote earlier about ordering the Persist triggers is accurate. In the scenario described in the original post, if I choose to order the Persist triggers so that Melira, Sylvok Outcast's persist is on top of the stack, she will come in with a -1/-1 counter but will prevent the other creatures which were destroyed at the same time from coming in with any counters. If we're talking about a wrath, Solemnity will definitely prevent all the creatures from coming back with -1/-1 counters because it, itself, will not be destroyed. Am I understanding correctly?
Persist is a triggered ability that each creature gains individually, so what happens exactly depends on how you order the persist triggers (they all go on the stack at the same time and you control them all, so you choose their relative order on the stack). Putting Melira's persist trigger on top of the stack so she enters first makes the most sense if you want as many creatures as possible to not enter with a -1/-1 counter. [EDIT: Her ability is taken into account for herself and makes it so she doesn't enter with a counter.] Then, provided she survives, her ability will prevent subsequent persist triggers from putting counters on the other returning creatures.
Solemnity's even easier since it's itself probably not destroyed by the board wipe (unless it also destroys enchantments) and won't persist if it is (unless you made it a creature somehow, in which case it works the same as Melira).
Thank you everyone for the time and effort you put into figuring this out. It's incredibly helpful!
I take it that what MadMageQc wrote earlier about ordering the Persist triggers is accurate. In the scenario described in the original post, if I choose to order the Persist triggers so that Melira, Sylvok Outcast's persist is on top of the stack, she will come in with a -1/-1 counter but will prevent the other creatures which were destroyed at the same time from coming in with any counters. If we're talking about a wrath, Solemnity will definitely prevent all the creatures from coming back with -1/-1 counters because it, itself, will not be destroyed. Am I understanding correctly?
Absolutely.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
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What about the same situation with Solemnity instead of Melira? Does it work the same way?
Even Melira itself won't be given any -1/-1 counters as it enters, due to its second ability, since that ability even works as Melira is entering the battlefield (C.R. 113.6h, 122.6, 614.17d).Note, however, that each persist ability will get to resolve separately, so that the creatures they refer to will reenter the battlefield one at a time (C.R. 702.78a, 117.4).If multiple creatures you control with persist, one of which is Melira, go to the graveyard at the same time, their persist abilities will trigger and go on the stack at the same time (C.R. 702.78a, 603.3). If you put the persist ability referring to Melira above any other persist ability you control on the stack, the Melira persist ability will get to resolve first and bring Melira to the battlefield in time for it to keep other creatures you control from being given -1/-1 counters as they enter the battlefield (C.R. 603.3b, 405.2, 117.4, 702.78a, 122.6, 614.17d).
[EDIT: Her ability is taken into account for herself and makes it so she doesn't enter with a counter.]Then, provided she survives, her ability will prevent subsequent persist triggers from putting counters on the other returning creatures.Solemnity's even easier since it's itself probably not destroyed by the board wipe (unless it also destroys enchantments) and won't persist if it is (unless you made it a creature somehow, in which case it works the same as Melira).
Bonus edit: Now, if instead your creatures including Melira are already in the graveyard and you bring them back with something like Pyrrhic Revival, which makes them all enter at the same time, Melira will only stop herself from entering with a -1/-1 counte, not the other creatures, since effects from permanents not yet on the battlefield are only taken into account for themselves in such an event, they can't apply to other things yet.
The relevant rule is this one, emphasis mine:
Melira's second ability even works as Melira is entering the battlefield; if Melira would enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it, it enters without that counter because such counters can't be put on "[c]reatures you control", including Melira (C.R. 113.6h, 122.6, 614.17d).I know that if a creature has one or more +1/+1 counters on it, then receives enough -1/-1 counters on it to send its toughness to zero, it will go to the graveyard and can not be brought back with persist. That's because it still had a -1/-1 counter on it when it was last on the battlefield.
Suppose that a creature has some combination of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it, but more +1/+1 counters (such that after they cancel out there will be no -1/-1 counters on the creature). If it dies for some reason other than these counters-- how soon, or at what point, would Cauldron of Souls be able to grant it persist and bring it back from the graveyard? At what point, or how quickly, do the +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out?
A minor correction to these two points: Melira can never apply to herself as she enters. Things like Mowu, Loyal Companion apply to themselves because they only apply to themselves. See this rule (I am just going to quote the same rule as above but highlight the more relevant section):
Oh my, you are actually misreading the rule the exact same way I misread it at first yesterday (lesson learned: it's really best to put detail in your self-correcting edits ). The thing is Melira's ability doesn't have a replacement effect, it's just a static ability with a continuous effect. Since it doesn't have a replacement effect, the part you bolded doesn't apply to it. The only replacement effect we're looking at here is entering the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter from persist. Melira's ability is instead an example of the other part of the rule that I bolded above, "taking into account [...] continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield". So it does work and prevent the putting of a counter on herself.
It kinda makes me want to facepalm that two very experimented gurus like us got this wrong, but to our defense, that rule and the interactions with Melira that it entails always have been confusing, and they have been modified over the years. It's easy to misremember exactly how it is now; Melira used not to affect herself while she enters the battlefield when this was worded differently, and I think we both misread the part you bolded as that fact that we remembered being true at some point.
EDIT: And now peteroupc is editing his posts thinking your correction was legit XD. Remove those strikethroughs Peter, you were right all along.
https://twitter.com/WizardMN/status/1018223761391308801
You are correct that the rule I quoted is the wrong one. Here is the right one (with the same part bolded). It is also the one peteroupc referenced in his answers above:
Also worth noting is that the rule change that affected things being affected before they entered (which allowed things like Blood Moon to affect replacement effects before the lands entered) came about in September, 2017 (or that summer). The answer Eli gave occurred after that and there have been no changes to any rule that would apply since then.
It would be tremendously helpful if someone could briefly summarize the final conclusions of the discussion above.
What is unclearA related question is, if Melira itself would enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it (e.g., due to persist), whether Melira enters the battlefield but without any -1/-1 counters on it. According to the Tweet by Eli Shiffrin, the answer is that Melira will still be given a -1/-1 counter this way as it enters the battlefield. (Before I learned about that Tweet, though, I posted my own Tweet to Eli Shiffrin to clarify the matter.)EDIT: Edited after comment 14 was posted.
So, as peteroupc says, if she is already on the field, she will stop anything from entering with -1/-1 counters. If she is returning to the field, or returning at the same time as anything else, she, as well as anything else returning *at the same time* as herself, will still be given counters as normal since her ability is not in effect yet.
This means that for Cauldron of Souls, it depends on the order the triggers resolve. If she enters first, she will have a counter but nothing else will since they enter after her. In the case of Pyrrhic Revival mentioned above, everything gets counters on them.
I take it that what MadMageQc wrote earlier about ordering the Persist triggers is accurate. In the scenario described in the original post, if I choose to order the Persist triggers so that Melira, Sylvok Outcast's persist is on top of the stack, she will come in with a -1/-1 counter but will prevent the other creatures which were destroyed at the same time from coming in with any counters. If we're talking about a wrath, Solemnity will definitely prevent all the creatures from coming back with -1/-1 counters because it, itself, will not be destroyed. Am I understanding correctly?