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No. With the rule change to the splice ability in Modern Horizons, splicing a card onto another spell is a text-changing effect (C.R. 612.8, 702.46a). And like other text-changing effects, the splice effect doesn't carry over to copies of the spell (C.R. 706.2).
EDIT: Corrected rule citation after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT: Added rule citation after comment 14 was posted.
While it is true that a "copy of a spell ... copies ... all decisions made for" the original spell, including whether one or more cards were spliced onto the original spell (C.R. 706.10), that doesn't mean that any effects from those decisions, such as the text-changing effect due to splice (C.R. 612.8, 702.46a, 702.46c) or the "can't-be-countered" effect from Boseiju, Who Shelters All, are necessarily copied as well. With limited exceptions not applicable here, effects on an object, other than copy effects, don't carry over to a copy of that object (C.R. 706.2). See also this thread.
EDIT: Corrected rule citation after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT: Added rule citation after comment 14 was posted.
I hope this is allowed, as I'm seeking clarification to the rules answer given, but how extensive is this splice rules change? (This is the first I've heard of it).
Two examples:
1) Izzet Guildmage + Lava Spike + Desperate Ritual - This used to deal infinite damage to opponents by splicing Ritual to Spike and then copying it with Guildmage, which dealt damage and generated enough mana to copy it again and again. Does this still work? From the answers given above it doesn't sound like it would.
2) Zada, Hedron Grinder + spliced Arcane spell - Let's say you have Zada and nine goblin tokens when you cast Path of Anger's Flame with a spliced on Overblaze and Desperate Ritual. Previously, you would get the original Frankenstein spell and nine copies, culminating in your creatures getting +20/+0 and each dealing double damage while your mana pool filled with 30 red mana. Does this all still happen? Or do you now only have one spliced-up superspell and 9 copies of plain old Path of Anger's Flame? Does it even copy for the tokens, given that the word "target" was added in a splice, which apparently is different now?
Before Modern Horizons, splice meant, in part: "... copy this card's text box onto that spell [etc.]" (C.R. 702.46a, as was in effect in War of the Spark), so that splice was a copy effect before Modern Horizons. Now, splice is a text-changing effect, not a copy effect (C.R. 612.8, 702.46a, 702.46c, as are now in effect), so that that effect doesn't carry over to copies of a spell onto which one or more cards are spliced.
1. No, since the rules text of Desperate Ritual spliced onto Lava Spike doesn't carry over to copies of that spell.
2. In this scenario, when the Zada ability resolves, each copy (assuming it's created) would have no targets, since the rules text spliced onto Path of Anger's Flame doesn't carry over to the copies. However, C.R. 706.10e (under which a copy of the spell referred to by the Zada ability is not created unless its corresponding creature is a legal target "for each instance of the word 'target'") appears not to clarify the situation when a spell has targets and a copy of that spell has none.
EDIT: Added rule citation after comment 14 was posted.
Alright, I have the same question because I have a Zada, Hedron Grinder deck where I splice Desperate Ritual on an arcane spell (Unnatural Speed, for example) all the time in order for the splice effect to be copied. In this example, since Desperate Ritual is revealed as Unnatural Speed is cast, wouldn't that take precedence before it even triggers Zada? So wouldn't Zada be triggered by a spell on the stack that actually reads "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." instead of just "Target creature gains haste until end of turn."? Meaning that if I have Zada and two more creatures in play they'd all get haste until end of turn and I'd have added RRRRRRRRR to my mana pool?
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Alright, I have the same question because I have a Zada, Hedron Grinder deck where I splice Desperate Ritual on an arcane spell (Unnatural Speed, for example) all the time in order for the splice effect to be copied. In this example, since Desperate Ritual is revealed as Unnatural Speed is cast, wouldn't that take precedence before it even triggers Zada? So wouldn't Zada be triggered by a spell on the stack that actually reads "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." instead of just "Target creature gains haste until end of turn."? Meaning that if I have Zada and two more creatures in play they'd all get haste until end of turn and I'd have added RRRRRRRRR to my mana pool?
If that spell "targets only" Zada, Zada's ability will trigger. This is the case whether the spell has the text "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." (C.R. 108.1, 702.46a) (Desperate Ritual spliced onto Unnatural Speed), or "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. [This spell] deals 2 damage to any target." (C.R. 201.4b, 108.1, 702.46a) (Glacial Ray spliced onto Unnatural Speed), or just "Target creature gains haste until end of turn" (Unnatural Speed alone). When that ability resolves, the spell is copied "for each other creature you control that the spell could target". However, the copies created this way won't have the splice effect of the original, so that in the case of Unnatural Speed, the only instruction each copy of Unnatural Speed created this way will have is "Target creature gains haste until end of turn", no matter what cards or how many cards were spliced onto Unnatural Speed.
Alright, I have the same question because I have a Zada, Hedron Grinder deck where I splice Desperate Ritual on an arcane spell (Unnatural Speed, for example) all the time in order for the splice effect to be copied. In this example, since Desperate Ritual is revealed as Unnatural Speed is cast, wouldn't that take precedence before it even triggers Zada? So wouldn't Zada be triggered by a spell on the stack that actually reads "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." instead of just "Target creature gains haste until end of turn."? Meaning that if I have Zada and two more creatures in play they'd all get haste until end of turn and I'd have added RRRRRRRRR to my mana pool?
If that spell "targets only" Zada, Zada's ability will trigger. This is the case whether the spell has the text "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." (C.R. 108.1) (Desperate Ritual spliced onto Unnatural Speed), or "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. [This spell] deals 2 damage to any target." (C.R. 201.4b, 108.1) (Glacial Ray spliced onto Unnatural Speed), or just "Target creature gains haste until end of turn" (Unnatural Speed alone). When that ability resolves, the spell is copied "for each other creature you control that the spell could target". However, the copies created this way won't have the text-changing effect of the original, so that no matter what or how many cards were spliced onto Unnatural Speed, the only instruction each copy of Unnatural Speed will have is "Target creature gains haste until end of turn".
Okay, so just to make sure I understood: if Zada is the only creature being targeted by Desperate Ritual spliced onto Unnatural Speed, only one instance of "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." will occur and every other instance of the copy will just be "Target creature gains haste until end of turn." and that's it?
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Okay, so just to make sure I understood: if Zada is the only creature being targeted by Desperate Ritual spliced onto Unnatural Speed, only one instance of "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." will occur and every other instance of the copy will just be "Target creature gains haste until end of turn." and that's it?
Here, the original will have "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR.", but the copies will have "Target creature gains haste until end of turn" and no other instructions.
Okay, so just to make sure I understood: if Zada is the only creature being targeted by Desperate Ritual spliced onto Unnatural Speed, only one instance of "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." will occur and every other instance of the copy will just be "Target creature gains haste until end of turn." and that's it?
Here, the original will have "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR.", but the copies will have "Target creature gains haste until end of turn" and no other instructions.
Any ideas on why they made that change? Splice onto arcane was already such a niche and parasitic mechanic and now the new splice rules made it even worse...
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Any ideas on why they made that change? Splice onto arcane was already such a niche and parasitic mechanic and now the new splice rules made it even worse...
Questions asking why a given change to the comprehensive rules (such as this one) was made are better asked in the Magic General forum rather than this one.
While it is true it is listed as a Text-Changing effect now, I am not convinced of which way this is actually supposed to work. We have the CR and all the rules saying it the copies won't have the text but we have the Rules Manager saying it will based on the fact that choices are indeed copied. We likely need a further clarification on this.
Usually the 'choices made when casting' part, managing to make the copy behave like it used the special mechanic, are because at least co-morbid with the copy also acquiresing the flashback/overload/whatever ability that says to do the thing because its cost was paid. This is true with buyback, flashback, overload, and awaken, as well as with gaining the part of a kicker spell that asks if "the kicker cost was paid", and the nonkeyword kicker spells too. All of these, by the way, have "was [cost] paid" be a code for whether you did this "choice to pay" and not what they say on the face. Copying will also copy the result of jump-start, which I just learned has the unique interest in the question "if this spell was cast using its jump-start ability", not about the jump-start cost being how you paid for it (though thats code for the same question?)
Entwine and Fuse let a spell copy the choice of all modes, or the combined characteristics, without needing an answer for copying 'the choice' of the ability.
Splice appends the full text of the spliced card, including the ability Splice, but that ability doesn't say that splicing means something different about this spell (splice is defined 702.46a as one ability allowing the grafting of text). That's kind of the whole clever contrivance of splice; it "just sticks more instructions on" a spell and then you end up following them.
At the end of the day, the "choices made when casting" question, for these keywords anyway, is already a completely coded part of the rules. It has been for as long as I've been aware of the CR, so if Eli says that's how Splice does too, that's a clarification. As well, we can recognize that, since the assignment of targets to each target phrase in the text, including the text gained from splice, is part of what a copy gets from a spell only through their status as "choices made when casting a spell", then, the thing that gave those target requirements to the spell must also be copiable, because otherwise you're copying 'what you're supposed to target'-information without having the targets.
But it does mean that, basically, the "choices made when casting" part is, really by intent, supposed to be the first thing that peteroupc said it wasn't, which is 'the effects of making those decisions'. (Except that doesnt apply to anything on Boseiju who Shelters All, so I don't know where that came from.)
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Under C.R. 706.2, "choices made when casting" a spell include "mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, [and] how [the spell] will affect multiple targets". They also include—
what colors of mana were spent to cast a particular spell (e.g., for the purposes of Ogre Savant), and
whether to splice one or more cards onto a spell (C.R. 601.2b).
C.R. 706.10's "decisions made for" a spell have the same meaning as C.R. 706.2's "choices made when casting" a spell. Neither rule, however, clarifies whether effects from such "decisions" or "choices" (e.g., whether a spell "can't be countered"—a continuous effect [C.R. 611.1]—because mana produced with Boseiju's or Cavern of Souls's last ability was spent on that spell, or whether a spell has additional text—a text-changing effect—because one or more cards were spliced onto it [C.R. 612.8, 702.46a, 702.46c]) are also "decisions made for" the spell or "choices made when casting" the spell within the meaning of those rules.
See also the case of overload. As with splice, overload includes a text-changing effect that does not carry over to copies of a spell for which its controller "chose to pay [its] overload cost" (C.R. 702.95a, 706.2, 109.5; compare with C.R. 702.46a, 702.46c). See also this thread.
EDIT: Struck out a paragraph after comment 18 was posted.
EDIT (Mar. 4, 2020): Struck out certain text.
See also the case of overload. As with splice, overload includes a text-changing effect that does not carry over to copies of a spell for which its controller "chose to pay [its] overload cost" (C.R. 702.95a, 706.2, 109.5; compare with C.R. 702.46a, 702.46c). See also this thread.
The second post in the thread you linked states that it seems to work though, albeit in a different way :
Quote from Artscrafter »
While it is true that the text-changing effect itself is not copied directly, the fact that the spell was cast using its overload cost is copied.
706.10. To copy a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
The copy of the spell ends up with the "each" text swap because it both (a) has the Overload ability that causes its own text-changing effect to occur if its alternate cost was used and (b) recognizes that the Overload cost was used.
(Sorry if I haven't understood your point correctly. I'm still unsure of myself when it comes to layers, although I'm learning, bit by bit)
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
Note that in the case of overload, the overload effect, if any, of a spell with overload generally "carries over" to the spell's copies because—
the copies will also have the overload keyword from the original spell (that keyword is clearly part of the spell's copiable values under C.R. 706.2 and 706.2a), and that keyword means, in part, "If you chose to pay this spell's overload cost, change its text..." (C.R. 702.95a),
the copies will also copy the choice of whether the original spell's overload cost chose to be paid and information on who chose to pay that cost (C.R. 706.2, 706.10), and
overload's text-changing effect of each of the copies comes from that copy itself (more specifically, from the copy's own instance of overload), not from the original spell.
This differs notably from splice, in that with splice, even though the original spell acquires the rules texts of the cards spliced onto it, those rules texts come from a text-changing effect, not a copy effect, and so are not part of the original spell's copiable values (again, text-changing effects, such as from splice, are generally not copied when one object copies another) (C.R. 702.46a, 702.46c, 706.2), and there is no ability a copy of that spell gains this way that makes its text change if a given choice was made when casting the original spell (as is the case with overload).
@peteroupc
I am still not positive on where you actually stand on this but you seem to be firmly in the camp of "this doesn't work". Which is wrong and continuing to provide that answer (or comments that lead to that answer) just confuses things and leads people to the wrong conclusion.
This *does* work and the copies will have the spliced on text as that is copied over due to being a choice made when casting the original spell. Eli has clarified that this is still a choice made that ensures the Text Changing effect applies when it needs to based on that choice.
Really, this thread is kind of dissolving into a "but the rules don't support the right answer" which might be true (I am not convinced of that) but we aren't going to really get anywhere here. If you don't feel that "choices are copied" will allow Splice's text-changing effect to apply then you need to take this up with Eli to clarify the CR if you feel that is needed.
Really, this thread is kind of dissolving into a "but the rules don't support the right answer" which might be true (I am not convinced of that) but we aren't going to really get anywhere here.
After reading through this and checking the CR, the conclusion I have reached is that the modified text box of a splice spell is not itself copied.
However,that '[spell] was spliced onto' is copied, and the splice then independently modifies the text of the copies as appropriate.
For all practical purposes, we can consider it to have copied the full modified text of the spliced spell, as that is what the end result is (albeit by different means).
However,that '[spell] was spliced onto' is copied, and the splice then independently modifies the text of the copies as appropriate.
Where the meaning of splice says "that spell", as in "that spell gains the text of this card's rules text...", it means only the spell being cast and no other objects, including copies of that spell (C.R. 702.46a). (Recall that a continuous effect from a static ability "applies ... to whatever its text indicates" and to nothing else [C.R. 611.3a].) Similarly, where Boseiju's second ability says "that spell", as in "If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered", it means only the spell on which the mana is spent and no other objects, including copies of that spell. Therefore, without more, the splice ability doesn't add additional text to a copy of a spell.
The splice effect, however, will carry over to copies of a spell if "choices made when casting" a spell, within the meaning of C.R. 706.2, include effects on those choices (such as the text-changing effect due to splice, or Boseiju's "can't-be-countered" effect). It's this detail that I seek to clarify.
The problem seems to be the ambiguity of "choices made when casting or activating it" what this actually means isn't clearly defined. Based on what the rules manager has said it essentially means choices made as part of 601.2b-601.2d. This would make it clear why it keeps splice but not something like boseiju.
user_938036,
That is not the problem. Nobody doubts the copies "know" a spell is spliced on it, but why exactly the text is changed is unclear, since the splice ability only mentions the spell it is spliced onto.
By the way, I disagree with peteroupc about Boseiju. I believe how the cost was paid isn't copied. For example, Reverberate-ing Painful Truths does nothing.
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EDIT: Corrected rule citation after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT: Added rule citation after comment 14 was posted.
Interesting.
EDIT: Corrected rule citation after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT: Added rule citation after comment 14 was posted.
Two examples:
1) Izzet Guildmage + Lava Spike + Desperate Ritual - This used to deal infinite damage to opponents by splicing Ritual to Spike and then copying it with Guildmage, which dealt damage and generated enough mana to copy it again and again. Does this still work? From the answers given above it doesn't sound like it would.
2) Zada, Hedron Grinder + spliced Arcane spell - Let's say you have Zada and nine goblin tokens when you cast Path of Anger's Flame with a spliced on Overblaze and Desperate Ritual. Previously, you would get the original Frankenstein spell and nine copies, culminating in your creatures getting +20/+0 and each dealing double damage while your mana pool filled with 30 red mana. Does this all still happen? Or do you now only have one spliced-up superspell and 9 copies of plain old Path of Anger's Flame? Does it even copy for the tokens, given that the word "target" was added in a splice, which apparently is different now?
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1. No, since the rules text of Desperate Ritual spliced onto Lava Spike doesn't carry over to copies of that spell.
2. In this scenario, when the Zada ability resolves, each copy (assuming it's created) would have no targets, since the rules text spliced onto Path of Anger's Flame doesn't carry over to the copies. However, C.R. 706.10e (under which a copy of the spell referred to by the Zada ability is not created unless its corresponding creature is a legal target "for each instance of the word 'target'") appears not to clarify the situation when a spell has targets and a copy of that spell has none.
EDIT: Added rule citation after comment 14 was posted.
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Okay, so just to make sure I understood: if Zada is the only creature being targeted by Desperate Ritual spliced onto Unnatural Speed, only one instance of "Target creature gains haste until end of turn. Add RRR." will occur and every other instance of the copy will just be "Target creature gains haste until end of turn." and that's it?
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Any ideas on why they made that change? Splice onto arcane was already such a niche and parasitic mechanic and now the new splice rules made it even worse...
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https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1135936204237463552
While it is true it is listed as a Text-Changing effect now, I am not convinced of which way this is actually supposed to work. We have the CR and all the rules saying it the copies won't have the text but we have the Rules Manager saying it will based on the fact that choices are indeed copied. We likely need a further clarification on this.
https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1131688437109600256
https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1144298755144859648
The spliced text is apparently copied due to the 'choices made when casting a spell' rule.
becauseat least co-morbid with the copy also acquiresing the flashback/overload/whatever ability that says to do the thing because its cost was paid. This is true with buyback, flashback, overload, and awaken, as well as with gaining the part of a kicker spell that asks if "the kicker cost was paid", and the nonkeyword kicker spells too. All of these, by the way, have "was [cost] paid" be a code for whether you did this "choice to pay" and not what they say on the face. Copying will also copy the result of jump-start, which I just learned has the unique interest in the question "if this spell was cast using its jump-start ability", not about the jump-start cost being how you paid for it (though thats code for the same question?)Entwine and Fuse let a spell copy the choice of all modes, or the combined characteristics, without needing an answer for copying 'the choice' of the ability.
Splice appends the full text of the spliced card, including the ability Splice, but that ability doesn't say that splicing means something different about this spell (splice is defined 702.46a as one ability allowing the grafting of text). That's kind of the whole clever contrivance of splice; it "just sticks more instructions on" a spell and then you end up following them.
At the end of the day, the "choices made when casting" question, for these keywords anyway, is already a completely coded part of the rules. It has been for as long as I've been aware of the CR, so if Eli says that's how Splice does too, that's a clarification. As well, we can recognize that, since the assignment of targets to each target phrase in the text, including the text gained from splice, is part of what a copy gets from a spell only through their status as "choices made when casting a spell", then, the thing that gave those target requirements to the spell must also be copiable, because otherwise you're copying 'what you're supposed to target'-information without having the targets.
But it does mean that, basically, the "choices made when casting" part is, really by intent, supposed to be the first thing that peteroupc said it wasn't, which is 'the effects of making those decisions'. (Except that doesnt apply to anything on Boseiju who Shelters All, so I don't know where that came from.)
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whether to spend particular mana to cast a particular spell (e.g., mana produced by Boseiju, Who Shelters All or Cavern of Souls),what colors of mana were spent to cast a particular spell (e.g., for the purposes of Ogre Savant), andC.R. 706.10's "decisions made for" a spell have the same meaning as C.R. 706.2's "choices made when casting" a spell. Neither rule, however, clarifies whether effects from such "decisions" or "choices" (e.g., whether a spell "can't be countered"—a continuous effect [C.R. 611.1]—because mana produced with Boseiju's or Cavern of Souls's last ability was spent on that spell, or whether a spell has additional text—a text-changing effect—because one or more cards were spliced onto it [C.R. 612.8, 702.46a, 702.46c]) are also "decisions made for" the spell or "choices made when casting" the spell within the meaning of those rules.
See also the case of overload. As with splice, overload includes a text-changing effect that does not carry over to copies of a spell for which its controller "chose to pay [its] overload cost" (C.R. 702.95a, 706.2, 109.5; compare with C.R. 702.46a, 702.46c). See also this thread.EDIT: Struck out a paragraph after comment 18 was posted.
EDIT (Mar. 4, 2020): Struck out certain text.
The second post in the thread you linked states that it seems to work though, albeit in a different way :
(Sorry if I haven't understood your point correctly. I'm still unsure of myself when it comes to layers, although I'm learning, bit by bit)
When you copy a spell, you copy the choices made when casting it including if you used splice or overload. (706.10)
So if you copy an Overloaded spell, the fact that you used Overload is copied and the spell is changed.
And if you copy a Spliced spell, the fact that you paid Splice costs are noted and you have the appended text.
Quotes from the Rules Manager on both cases. https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1144607536210796544
I am still not positive on where you actually stand on this but you seem to be firmly in the camp of "this doesn't work". Which is wrong and continuing to provide that answer (or comments that lead to that answer) just confuses things and leads people to the wrong conclusion.
This *does* work and the copies will have the spliced on text as that is copied over due to being a choice made when casting the original spell. Eli has clarified that this is still a choice made that ensures the Text Changing effect applies when it needs to based on that choice.
Really, this thread is kind of dissolving into a "but the rules don't support the right answer" which might be true (I am not convinced of that) but we aren't going to really get anywhere here. If you don't feel that "choices are copied" will allow Splice's text-changing effect to apply then you need to take this up with Eli to clarify the CR if you feel that is needed.
After reading through this and checking the CR, the conclusion I have reached is that the modified text box of a splice spell is not itself copied.
However,that '[spell] was spliced onto' is copied, and the splice then independently modifies the text of the copies as appropriate.
For all practical purposes, we can consider it to have copied the full modified text of the spliced spell, as that is what the end result is (albeit by different means).
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Where the meaning of splice says "that spell", as in "that spell gains the text of this card's rules text...", it means only the spell being cast and no other objects, including copies of that spell (C.R. 702.46a). (Recall that a continuous effect from a static ability "applies ... to whatever its text indicates" and to nothing else [C.R. 611.3a].) Similarly, where Boseiju's second ability says "that spell", as in "If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered", it means only the spell on which the mana is spent and no other objects, including copies of that spell. Therefore, without more, the splice ability doesn't add additional text to a copy of a spell.
The splice effect, however, will carry over to copies of a spell if "choices made when casting" a spell, within the meaning of C.R. 706.2, include effects on those choices (such as the text-changing effect due to splice, or Boseiju's "can't-be-countered" effect). It's this detail that I seek to clarify.
That is not the problem. Nobody doubts the copies "know" a spell is spliced on it, but why exactly the text is changed is unclear, since the splice ability only mentions the spell it is spliced onto.
By the way, I disagree with peteroupc about Boseiju. I believe how the cost was paid isn't copied. For example, Reverberate-ing Painful Truths does nothing.