I need some help to clarify how the new card Narset's Reversal work together with copying effects (like Fork) on the stack.
I was very confused after wathcing a video from the youtube-channel "The Command Zone" (War of the Spark Set Review, timestamp 1:06:43) where they explain how you can get all three cards back when using a spell, lets say Shock, and then combine it with Narset's Reversal and a copy effect like Fork.
I tried to make it work like they explain it but I seem to get something wrong. I also tried to build the stack, but I just could not make it work. Assuming that they are correct in the video, I would really like to konw what I am I missing. This is how I would create the scenario:
1: I cast Shock, targeting my opponent
2: I cast Narset's Reversal targeting Shock (let's write NR-1 to represent this original Narset's Reversal).
3: I then cast Fork, targeting my Narset's Reversal (NR-1)
4: Players pass priority, Fork resolves, and creates a copy of Narset's Reversal (NR-2) on top of the stack, but where I decide that NR-2 should target NR-1 instead of Shock.
5: Then NR-2 resolves, creating a NR-3 (which is a copy of NR-1). Also, as NR-2 resolves, the NR-1 would be returned to my hand and removed from the stack (and therefore no spell on the stack would now copy Shock and return it to owners hand, unless NR-3 targets Shock.
The last point (#5) is is where I can't keep track with the explanation from the Command Zone. How could anything target Fork back, and return all three cards back and still get the effect of the original spell? It seems to me that you would always "lose" at least one card if you want the effect of the original spell to happen one time.
If someone could help me to explain where I might be wrong, I would be really happy.
I am kind of happy to see that I was right, and that this does not work. But it's sad that 100k people are watching this show, and they see this combo and might believe that it works this way, when it actually is totally wrong.
I just listened to that episode, and rewound it like 10 times trying to understand how to get all 3 spells back in your hand. I even emptied my wallet using my credit/debit/insurance cards as placeholders of spells and copies trying to make it work. It’s a huge relief to know this isn’t possible, so I can stop stop thinking about it.
Spam warning issued. The rules of the Magic rulings forum ask you to only post if you’re answering a rules question or asking one of your own. -MadMage
What happened here?
Each time a spell is copied the copied card goes onto the stack. So Fork resolved going to the graveyard putting a copy of Narset's Reversal on the stack in it's place. That Narset's Reversal Returns the original back to your hand and put's another copy of Narset's Reversal onto the stack. That copy returns Shock to your hand and puts a copy of Shock onto the stack. which would result in you still having Shock and Narset's Reversal in your hand but not Fork.
To the best of my knowledge, with only those three cards, it's impossible to get them all back. The only way to get a copy of Narset's Reversal is to let Fork resolve, and at that point it will already be in the graveyard. It is possible to get them all back if you can get one more copy of Fork on the stack, though. Ways to do this include Pyromancer's Goggles, Swarm Intelligence, Fury Storm, and probably many more that I just haven't heard of. Let's say we're using Pyromancer's Goggles, for my example. Here's how you would do it:
Step 1: Cast Shock (S-1). Maintain Priority.
Step 2: Cast Narset's Reversal (NR-1), targeting Shock. Maintain Priority.
Step 3: Cast Fork (F-1), targeting Narset's Reversal and using the mana from Pyromancer's Goggles.
Step 4: Pyromancer's Goggles will trigger and create a copy of Fork (F-2). Target NR-1 with F-2. Pass Priority
Step 5: Resolve F-2. This will create a copy of Narset's Reversal (NR-2). Target F-1 with NR-2. Pass Priority
Step 6: Resolve NR-2. This will return Fork to your hand and create a copy of it (F-3). Target NR-1 with F-3. Pass Priority.
Step 7: Resolve F-3. This will create a copy of Narset's Reversal (NR-3). Target NR-1 with NR-3. Pass Priority
Step 8: Resolve NR-3. This will return NR-1 to your hand and create a copy of it (NR-4). Target S-1 with NR-4. Pass Priority
Step 9: Resolve NR-4. This will return Shock to your hand and create a copy of it (S-2). Target the original target with S-2. Pass Priority
Step 10: Resolve S-2. You now have all three cards back in your hand and the same effect that you would have otherwise gotten, at the price of four extra mana.
So I know it might have been a little bit hard to follow but if you want to get everything back, it definitely isn't simple. The TL;DR is that you can do it if you want to, but you need to get an additional copy of fork onto the stack first.
Spam warning issued. We ask users to not revive older threads (necroing), unless for example, it is to correct an answer that's no longer valid because of rules changes. Here, the question was answered and the information provided was complete and correct. Suggesting adding cards that change the interaction is considered strategy advice; in a case like this one, I would probably have let it pass if it were posted the same day as the rest of the thread, but here it's the combination with the necroing that requires me to flag your post, so as to discourage people from doing a similar thing. Thank you for your attention! -MadMageQc
To all of those who says its impossible i say HA look up the card isochron scepter and eat your words, slap either increasing vengeance or twincast to pay 6 or just exile narset's reversal with it ans just pay an extra two for your spells and boom all spells you play with narset's reversal return to your hand because the spell that would return to your hand is exiled on that artifact
Grantid that makes it so someone can remove that artifact but if you catch them in a loop with time walk you get infinite turns and win
Wow, I can pretty much copy and paste my warning from the post just above yours, now that's convenient! I will also lock this thread, which I should have done in May.
Spam warning issued. We ask users to not revive older threads (necroing), unless for example, it is to correct an answer that's no longer valid because of rules changes. Here, the question was answered and the information provided was complete and correct. Suggesting adding cards that change the interaction is considered strategy advice, and posting just for strategy advice in Rulings is considered spam. -MadMageQc
I need some help to clarify how the new card Narset's Reversal work together with copying effects (like Fork) on the stack.
I was very confused after wathcing a video from the youtube-channel "The Command Zone" (War of the Spark Set Review, timestamp 1:06:43) where they explain how you can get all three cards back when using a spell, lets say Shock, and then combine it with Narset's Reversal and a copy effect like Fork.
I tried to make it work like they explain it but I seem to get something wrong. I also tried to build the stack, but I just could not make it work. Assuming that they are correct in the video, I would really like to konw what I am I missing. This is how I would create the scenario:
1: I cast Shock, targeting my opponent
2: I cast Narset's Reversal targeting Shock (let's write NR-1 to represent this original Narset's Reversal).
3: I then cast Fork, targeting my Narset's Reversal (NR-1)
4: Players pass priority, Fork resolves, and creates a copy of Narset's Reversal (NR-2) on top of the stack, but where I decide that NR-2 should target NR-1 instead of Shock.
5: Then NR-2 resolves, creating a NR-3 (which is a copy of NR-1). Also, as NR-2 resolves, the NR-1 would be returned to my hand and removed from the stack (and therefore no spell on the stack would now copy Shock and return it to owners hand, unless NR-3 targets Shock.
The last point (#5) is is where I can't keep track with the explanation from the Command Zone. How could anything target Fork back, and return all three cards back and still get the effect of the original spell? It seems to me that you would always "lose" at least one card if you want the effect of the original spell to happen one time.
If someone could help me to explain where I might be wrong, I would be really happy.
/ Zappa from Cairo
I am kind of happy to see that I was right, and that this does not work. But it's sad that 100k people are watching this show, and they see this combo and might believe that it works this way, when it actually is totally wrong.
Spam warning issued. The rules of the Magic rulings forum ask you to only post if you’re answering a rules question or asking one of your own. -MadMage
Casting:
1. Shock is on the stack
2. Narset's Reversal goes onto the stack targeting Shock
3. Fork Goes onto the stack targeting Narset's Reversal
Resolving:
3a. Fork resolves copying Narset's Reversal and then Fork leaves the stack
3b. The copied Narset's Reversal target's the original Narset's Reversal Which resolves then add's another Narset's Reversal copy to the stack targeting Shock
2. The original Narset's Reversal is bounced to your hand and fizzles
1. Shock Returns to your hand and you last copy of Narset's Reversal becomes a Shock
What happened here?
Each time a spell is copied the copied card goes onto the stack. So Fork resolved going to the graveyard putting a copy of Narset's Reversal on the stack in it's place. That Narset's Reversal Returns the original back to your hand and put's another copy of Narset's Reversal onto the stack. That copy returns Shock to your hand and puts a copy of Shock onto the stack. which would result in you still having Shock and Narset's Reversal in your hand but not Fork.
This is based on the Rulings for Fork on gatherer.
"The Fork card goes to the graveyard when it resolves and leaves the copy on the stack. There is no card representing the copy on the stack."
Step 1: Cast Shock (S-1). Maintain Priority.
Step 2: Cast Narset's Reversal (NR-1), targeting Shock. Maintain Priority.
Step 3: Cast Fork (F-1), targeting Narset's Reversal and using the mana from Pyromancer's Goggles.
Step 4: Pyromancer's Goggles will trigger and create a copy of Fork (F-2). Target NR-1 with F-2. Pass Priority
Step 5: Resolve F-2. This will create a copy of Narset's Reversal (NR-2). Target F-1 with NR-2. Pass Priority
Step 6: Resolve NR-2. This will return Fork to your hand and create a copy of it (F-3). Target NR-1 with F-3. Pass Priority.
Step 7: Resolve F-3. This will create a copy of Narset's Reversal (NR-3). Target NR-1 with NR-3. Pass Priority
Step 8: Resolve NR-3. This will return NR-1 to your hand and create a copy of it (NR-4). Target S-1 with NR-4. Pass Priority
Step 9: Resolve NR-4. This will return Shock to your hand and create a copy of it (S-2). Target the original target with S-2. Pass Priority
Step 10: Resolve S-2. You now have all three cards back in your hand and the same effect that you would have otherwise gotten, at the price of four extra mana.
So I know it might have been a little bit hard to follow but if you want to get everything back, it definitely isn't simple. The TL;DR is that you can do it if you want to, but you need to get an additional copy of fork onto the stack first.
Spam warning issued. We ask users to not revive older threads (necroing), unless for example, it is to correct an answer that's no longer valid because of rules changes. Here, the question was answered and the information provided was complete and correct. Suggesting adding cards that change the interaction is considered strategy advice; in a case like this one, I would probably have let it pass if it were posted the same day as the rest of the thread, but here it's the combination with the necroing that requires me to flag your post, so as to discourage people from doing a similar thing. Thank you for your attention! -MadMageQc
Grantid that makes it so someone can remove that artifact but if you catch them in a loop with time walk you get infinite turns and win
Wow, I can pretty much copy and paste my warning from the post just above yours, now that's convenient! I will also lock this thread, which I should have done in May.
Spam warning issued. We ask users to not revive older threads (necroing), unless for example, it is to correct an answer that's no longer valid because of rules changes. Here, the question was answered and the information provided was complete and correct. Suggesting adding cards that change the interaction is considered strategy advice, and posting just for strategy advice in Rulings is considered spam. -MadMageQc