A little background: Recently, i've discovered Patron of the Vein as my Noxious Gearhulk type effect of choice for my counters matter deck. This card also accidentally doubles as a graveyard hate piece. Something i need for my meta but don't want to commit to, so i try to stay on flavor as much as possible. For this reason the same deck also runs Anafenza, the Foremost
I have a slim feeling this is a nonbo, for the replacement effect of Anafenza, would stop Patron's second ability to trigger. But i'm not sure. Do i have a choice? Can someone explain to me how both interact?
Hi there. Your assumption is correct. Anafenza would prevent the second trigger from Patron of the Vein.
To explain it ingame the situation would play out as such:
1. Patron of the Vein enters. As part of it's ETB it gets to destroy or send target creature to the graveyard.
2. Target creature whilst on its way to the graveyard triggers Anafenza's ability.
3. As part of the ability instead of going to the graveyard Anafenza exiles the target creature instead.
4. Patron of the Vein checks to see if a creature has died as per it's second ability. However the condition of "dies" is having target creature go to the graveyard (even if it shuffles itself back into the deck afterwards such as Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre). However Anafenza has instead exiled the creature instead of allowing it to go the graveyard so Patron's ability does not trigger.
Hope this helps or someone can explain it in a more comprehensible manner.
2. Target creature whilst on its way to the graveyard triggers Anafenza's ability.
3. As part of the ability instead of going to the graveyard Anafenza exiles the target creature instead.
While your answer was correct in the end, the explanation is quite faulty. There is no such thing as "whilst on the way to the graveyard". An object is at all times in one zone only. If it's not in the graveyard then it's still on the battlefield. There is no in-between. What Anafenza's ability does is change the destination, via a replacement effect, so nothing triggers here either. Furthermore, what exiles the creature is the Patron's ability, not Anafenza's. Because the Patron's trigger is the one causing the zone change.
I'd disagree. Mainly because that's exactly how commanders work. If someone is to destroy my commander it sets up that step where I decide if I want its destination to be the graveyard or its command zone. Same here. Annie detects a creature on the way to the graveyard and changes its course instead.
I'd disagree. Mainly because that's exactly how commanders work. If someone is to destroy my commander it sets up that step where I decide if I want its destination to be the graveyard or its command zone. Same here. Annie detects a creature on the way to the graveyard and changes its course instead.
Mine is not an opinion, it's how the rules work. While you are making the decision to send the commander to the command zone, it is still on the battlefield or in whatever zone it starts out.
As for Anafenza, I did say she changes the destination, she just isn't the one to cause the zone change.
@Rezzahan is right about the commander rule. If it helps, sometimes you can see these steps happening on MTGO if you have it, to see how they work in action (assuming MTGO doesn't donk out on you).
Rezzahan is right that there is no 'third location', which the phrase "whilst on its way to the graveyard" is suggestive of.
However, procedurally, in specifying the behaviour of system in terms precise enough to mechanize it (that is, make a program like MTGO play the game), there is a stage during which the object is being contemplated for the application of replacement effects. This is sometime after the possibility of the event has been proven, but before the event takes place. "All applicable replacement effects" are polled and a process allows the players to iteratively apply those replacements to derive an event to replace the original event. This is a stage of the process, but still there is no third location.
Serpent Steve's use of the word 'triggers' in post #2 is incorrect, because trigger is technical. Replacement effects don't trigger, they apply.
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Recently, i've discovered Patron of the Vein as my Noxious Gearhulk type effect of choice for my counters matter deck. This card also accidentally doubles as a graveyard hate piece. Something i need for my meta but don't want to commit to, so i try to stay on flavor as much as possible. For this reason the same deck also runs Anafenza, the Foremost
I have a slim feeling this is a nonbo, for the replacement effect of Anafenza, would stop Patron's second ability to trigger. But i'm not sure. Do i have a choice? Can someone explain to me how both interact?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
To explain it ingame the situation would play out as such:
1. Patron of the Vein enters. As part of it's ETB it gets to destroy or send target creature to the graveyard.
2. Target creature whilst on its way to the graveyard triggers Anafenza's ability.
3. As part of the ability instead of going to the graveyard Anafenza exiles the target creature instead.
4. Patron of the Vein checks to see if a creature has died as per it's second ability. However the condition of "dies" is having target creature go to the graveyard (even if it shuffles itself back into the deck afterwards such as Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre). However Anafenza has instead exiled the creature instead of allowing it to go the graveyard so Patron's ability does not trigger.
Hope this helps or someone can explain it in a more comprehensible manner.
While your answer was correct in the end, the explanation is quite faulty. There is no such thing as "whilst on the way to the graveyard". An object is at all times in one zone only. If it's not in the graveyard then it's still on the battlefield. There is no in-between. What Anafenza's ability does is change the destination, via a replacement effect, so nothing triggers here either. Furthermore, what exiles the creature is the Patron's ability, not Anafenza's. Because the Patron's trigger is the one causing the zone change.
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Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Mine is not an opinion, it's how the rules work. While you are making the decision to send the commander to the command zone, it is still on the battlefield or in whatever zone it starts out.
As for Anafenza, I did say she changes the destination, she just isn't the one to cause the zone change.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
However, procedurally, in specifying the behaviour of system in terms precise enough to mechanize it (that is, make a program like MTGO play the game), there is a stage during which the object is being contemplated for the application of replacement effects. This is sometime after the possibility of the event has been proven, but before the event takes place. "All applicable replacement effects" are polled and a process allows the players to iteratively apply those replacements to derive an event to replace the original event. This is a stage of the process, but still there is no third location.
Serpent Steve's use of the word 'triggers' in post #2 is incorrect, because trigger is technical. Replacement effects don't trigger, they apply.
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