2. I have 2 Rhythm of the Wild, then i cast Growth-Chamber Guardian, choosing both + 1/+1 counter to the riot, how many times growth chamber guardian triggers?
Thanks
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1. Three +1/+1 counters. Both Hardened Scales and Metallic Mimic would each add one +1/+1 counter to the number Walking Ballista enters the battlefield with. In general, for the purposes of Hardened Scales (and Growth-Chamber Guardian), counters are "put" on an object if the effect says "put ... counter(s)", "move ... counter(s)" (C.R. 121.5), or "enter(s)" or "put ... onto" or "return ... to" "the battlefield ... with ... counter(s)" (C.R. 121.6) (see also this thread and this thread).
2. Growth-Chamber Guardian's ability won't trigger for Growth-Chamber Guardian itself if it enters the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it. Replacement effects, such as riot, are dealt with before Growth-Chamber Guardian enters the battlefield (C.R. 400.6, 614.1, 702.135a; see also C.R. 614.12), so that its last ability won't be able to trigger yet (C.R. 112.6).
EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 19 was posted.
It enters with two +1/+1 counters - so it will trigger once because its trigger condition is 'whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put on me'.
Gatherer Rulings - 1/25/2019 - An ability that triggers when counters are put on a permanent will trigger if that permanent somehow enters the battlefield with those counters.
Comp Rules 121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield and also to an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield.
Gatherer Rulings - 1/25/2019 - An ability that triggers when counters are put on a permanent will trigger if that permanent somehow enters the battlefield with those counters.
It enters with two +1/+1 counters - so it will trigger once because its trigger condition is 'whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put on me'.
That is generally true (C.R. 121.6), but that is not true in the particular case of Growth-Chamber Guardian's triggered ability upon Growth-Chamber Guardian entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it. That is becauseHowever, riot (as well as other abilities that add +1/+1 counters a permanent would enter the battlefield with) is dealt with before Growth-Chamber Guardian enters the battlefield (C.R. 400.6, 614.1, 702.135a; under C.R. 400.6, if "an object would move from one zone to another", "any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or elsewhere, are applied to [the appropriate] event" before the object moves; see also C.R. 614.12), so before Growth-Chamber Guardian's triggered ability starts to function (in general, triggered abilities of a permanent function only on the battlefield [C.R. 112.6]). Since Growth-Chamber Guardian isn't yet on the battlefield as it's given counters due to riot, its triggered ability can't trigger.
EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 9 was posted.
EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 19 was posted.
Comp Rules 121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield and also to an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield.
Again, you're wrong. Right in the rules. It can trigger itself if it enters with counters. The Gatherer rulings say that too.
Comp Rules 121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield and also to an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield.
Again, you're wrong. Right in the rules. It can trigger itself if it enters with counters. The Gatherer rulings say that too.
Again, here, Growth-Chamber Guardian is given the +1/+1 counters (due to riot) before it enters the battlefield. And since Growth-Chamber Guardian's ability triggers only when it's on the battlefield (C.R. 112.6), it won't trigger when Growth-Chamber Guardian is given +1/+1 counters before it enters the battlefield.
To be clear: I understand that if Animation Module already exists on the battlefield, its first ability will trigger if another permanent "you control" is given +1/+1 counters upon entering the battlefield (C.R. 121.6). See also this thread.
EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 19 was posted.
So you're saying that both the Gatherer ruling and the Comp Rules are wrong?
Oh, in that very thread you made the very point that it should trigger itself.
Growth-Chamber Guardian that rioted into a +1/+1 counter triggers itself upon entering. Thank you.
Riot gives the creature counters as it enters the field like any replacement effect. This one is no different. Have fun with your trigger, OP. (Sorry we have someone here who refuses to acknowledge that truth.)
So you're saying that both the Gatherer ruling and the Comp Rules are wrong?
Oh, in that very thread you made the very point that it should trigger itself.
No, the thread I linked to in comment 7 involved a permanent (there, a Servo creature token) entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it while Animation Module is already on the battlefield. Like Growth-Chamber Guardian, Animation Module has an ability of the form "Whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put..." (in its Oracle text [C.R. 108.1]). This is different from the case of a permanent with an ability of that form (here, Growth-Chamber Guardian) itself entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it.
Everyone else but you acknowledges that it will trigger itself. There is nothing in the rules to support your stance and everything to support the truth. It even says it on its own Gatherer page.
As I see it, whether Growth-Chamber Guardian's second ability will trigger upon it entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it depends on whether, as far as the game is concerned, Growth-Chamber Guardian is given those counters before it enters the battlefield. If the answer is no, then that ability will trigger in accordance with C.R. 121.6.
There is no _before_. It's the exact same thing as it entering with counters to any other way. Riot changes how it enters the field. It enters with a +1/+1 counter, so it triggers any ability that cares about counters being put on a permanent including its own.
I quoted you the rules that support it. If you refuse to acknowledge them, that's your problem, but you giving out false information is problematic.
121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield and also to an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield.
603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game "looks back in time" to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:
This trigger doesn't follow any of the exceptions. So the GCG (Growth-Chamber Guardian) enters the battlefield with the counters, after that it then checks to see if any trigger conditions are met. At this time the GCG is on the battlefield, so GCG's ability will trigger since the condition is met.
Rules for counters going on permanents are crystal clear in that they act in a consistent manner repugnant to the ontic logic of our universe. The Guardian's ability is able to trigger for counters being put on an object even as it enters the battlefield, even though the object is not a permanent at that time - and in some cases (tokens), the object has no existence before it is a permanent - and in neither case, it lives as a permanent without the counters to experience them being placed on it.
However, it's still true that triggered abilities must exist at least no later than the event they are watching for. Thus, the interaction at hand does rest on the timing that peteroupc has fixated on: Do these counters get placed before the object is a permanent - because then, in that case the Guardian's ability is not active yet - or are they placed (contrary to Time, logic, and reason) in such a way that it counts as counters being placed on a permanent - despite that we know riot is taking effect strictly before the zone change occurs?
(If the ability - Guardian's - is not in consideration, then anything we know about what its text refers to is irrelevant, because we aren't supposed to read it.)
CR121.6 looks to be the only rule in relation to this behaviour (but it is hard to search this out by key words). This rule is. . . sparse. It does say that, yes, the text on every spell and ability can be taken to refer to this occasion - "in such a way that it counts as counters being placed on a permanent" - but it is missing anything to overturn the rule for enabling triggered abilities in time.
You can guess from the Gatherer rulings that this is perhaps an intent of 121.6. But there's a dual affirmation needed here, and I agree that peter is right to pick on it.
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The one point I'd like to argue about is that you'd only get one trigger. In this case you have two instances of Riot, and if you choose to put a +1/+1 counter on each, then you have one instance of Riot that is putting a +1/+1 counter on the GCG and another instance of Riot that is putting a counter on GCG. Those are two separate events that put a +1/+1 counter on the GCG, so even though it enters with 2 +1/+1 counters each of those counters were put on it by a separate event. So you'd get two triggers, not one.
That is incorrect. The event being modified is "Guardian enters the battlefield." It is modified to a total of "Guardian enters the battlefield with two counters." Counters are only placed on it once. It triggers one time.
Yeah scratch that. After thinking about it I realized it has 2 different replacement effects, but as it's entering the battlefield both counters are actually put on the GCG at the same time.
I want to note a particular observation in the rules: Under C.R. 112.6h, an "object's ability that states counters can't be put on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield", not just while it's already on the battlefield; this is an exception to C.R. 112.6. There is no similar exception to C.R. 112.6 for abilities that trigger whenever counters are put on a permanent, as found in Animation Module or Growth-Chamber Guardian.
Also, to be fair, there seems to be support for the argument that Growth-Chamber Guardian's second ability will trigger upon Growth-Chamber Guardian entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it. Under C.R. 603.10, in general, "objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions", and that ability is not an exception to that general rule (C.R. 603.10, 603.10a-g). In the case of the ability in question, if the game understands the moment "immediately after an event" to mean—
"the moment Growth-Chamber Guardian is on the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it", then the ability will trigger based on the event in question.
"the moment after Growth-Chamber Guardian is given +1/+1 counters, but before it enters the battlefield", then the ability will not trigger (C.R. 112.6).
"the moment after Growth-Chamber Guardian is given +1/+1 counters, but is not yet on the battlefield"
There is no such moment.
Before the event, Growth-Chamber Guardian is on the stack without counters. After the event, it is on the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters.
603.6d Some permanents have text that reads “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,”
“As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . .
,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield tapped.” Such text is a static ability—not a
triggered ability—whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent onto the
battlefield.
How many counter walking ballista enter the battlefield with?
2. I have 2 Rhythm of the Wild, then i cast Growth-Chamber Guardian, choosing both + 1/+1 counter to the riot, how many times growth chamber guardian triggers?
Thanks
Moderator note: Card tags may not work properly if you put spaces between them and the names. I've removed the spaces. -MadMage
2.
Growth-Chamber Guardian's ability won't trigger for Growth-Chamber Guardian itself if it enters the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it.Replacement effects, such as riot, are dealt with before Growth-Chamber Guardian enters the battlefield (C.R. 400.6, 614.1, 702.135a; see also C.R. 614.12), so that its last ability won't be able to trigger yet (C.R. 112.6).EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 19 was posted.
It enters with two +1/+1 counters - so it will trigger once because its trigger condition is 'whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put on me'.
Gatherer Rulings - 1/25/2019 - An ability that triggers when counters are put on a permanent will trigger if that permanent somehow enters the battlefield with those counters.
Comp Rules 121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield and also to an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield.
, but that is not true in the particular case of Growth-Chamber Guardian's triggered ability upon Growth-Chamber Guardian entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it.That is becauseHowever, riot (as well as other abilities that add +1/+1 counters a permanent would enter the battlefield with) is dealt with before Growth-Chamber Guardian enters the battlefield (C.R. 400.6, 614.1, 702.135a; under C.R. 400.6, if "an object would move from one zone to another", "any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or elsewhere, are applied to [the appropriate] event" before the object moves; see also C.R. 614.12), so before Growth-Chamber Guardian's triggered ability starts to function (in general, triggered abilities of a permanent function only on the battlefield [C.R. 112.6]). Since Growth-Chamber Guardian isn't yet on the battlefield as it's given counters due to riot, its triggered ability can't trigger.EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 9 was posted.
EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 19 was posted.
Again, you're wrong. Right in the rules. It can trigger itself if it enters with counters. The Gatherer rulings say that too.
Again, here, Growth-Chamber Guardian is given the +1/+1 counters (due to riot) before it enters the battlefield. And sinceGrowth-Chamber Guardian's ability triggers only when it's on the battlefield (C.R. 112.6), it won't trigger when Growth-Chamber Guardian is given +1/+1 counters before it enters the battlefield.To be clear: I understand that if Animation Module already exists on the battlefield, its first ability will trigger if another permanent "you control" is given +1/+1 counters upon entering the battlefield (C.R. 121.6). See also this thread.
EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 19 was posted.
Oh, in that very thread you made the very point that it should trigger itself.
Growth-Chamber Guardian that rioted into a +1/+1 counter triggers itself upon entering. Thank you.
Riot gives the creature counters as it enters the field like any replacement effect. This one is no different. Have fun with your trigger, OP. (Sorry we have someone here who refuses to acknowledge that truth.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/aedy4d/does_growth_chamber_guardian_work_with_rhythm_of/
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38165_Beating-Down-With-Rhythm-Of-The-Wild-.html
Everyone else but you acknowledges that it will trigger itself. There is nothing in the rules to support your stance and everything to support the truth. It even says it on its own Gatherer page.
As I see it, whether Growth-Chamber Guardian's second ability will trigger upon it entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it depends on whether, as far as the game is concerned, Growth-Chamber Guardian is given those counters before it enters the battlefield. If the answer is no, then that ability will trigger in accordance with C.R. 121.6.
I quoted you the rules that support it. If you refuse to acknowledge them, that's your problem, but you giving out false information is problematic.
This trigger doesn't follow any of the exceptions. So the GCG (Growth-Chamber Guardian) enters the battlefield with the counters, after that it then checks to see if any trigger conditions are met. At this time the GCG is on the battlefield, so GCG's ability will trigger since the condition is met.
However, it's still true that triggered abilities must exist at least no later than the event they are watching for. Thus, the interaction at hand does rest on the timing that peteroupc has fixated on: Do these counters get placed before the object is a permanent - because then, in that case the Guardian's ability is not active yet - or are they placed (contrary to Time, logic, and reason) in such a way that it counts as counters being placed on a permanent - despite that we know riot is taking effect strictly before the zone change occurs?
(If the ability - Guardian's - is not in consideration, then anything we know about what its text refers to is irrelevant, because we aren't supposed to read it.)
CR121.6 looks to be the only rule in relation to this behaviour (but it is hard to search this out by key words). This rule is. . . sparse. It does say that, yes, the text on every spell and ability can be taken to refer to this occasion - "in such a way that it counts as counters being placed on a permanent" - but it is missing anything to overturn the rule for enabling triggered abilities in time.
You can guess from the Gatherer rulings that this is perhaps an intent of 121.6. But there's a dual affirmation needed here, and I agree that peter is right to pick on it.
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Your answer (as I told you.)
The one point I'd like to argue about is that you'd only get one trigger. In this case you have two instances of Riot, and if you choose to put a +1/+1 counter on each, then you have one instance of Riot that is putting a +1/+1 counter on the GCG and another instance of Riot that is putting a counter on GCG. Those are two separate events that put a +1/+1 counter on the GCG, so even though it enters with 2 +1/+1 counters each of those counters were put on it by a separate event. So you'd get two triggers, not one.Also, to be fair, there seems to be support for the argument that Growth-Chamber Guardian's second ability will trigger upon Growth-Chamber Guardian entering the battlefield with one or more +1/+1 counters on it. Under C.R. 603.10, in general, "objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions", and that ability is not an exception to that general rule (C.R. 603.10, 603.10a-g). In the case of the ability in question, if the game understands the moment "immediately after an event" to mean—
EDIT: Edited after comment 19 was posted.
Before the event, Growth-Chamber Guardian is on the stack without counters. After the event, it is on the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters.