If abilities that trigger at the beginning of upkeep go on the stack at the beginning of the upkeep step, does that mean you can play an instant at the beginning of the upkeep step and have it resolve before the triggered abilities? For example, if Pendrell Mists is on the board, can I play Reins of Power at the beginning of the upkeep step and then when the triggered ability of Pendrell Mists resolves, choose not to pay the additional cost and thereby bury the creatures I just took control of from my opponent?
Pendrell Mists's ability now says "All creatures have 'At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this creature unless you pay 1'" (C.R. 108.1) — it no longer speaks of "burying" creatures.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, the ability gained this way by each creature that player controls will trigger, and all such abilities will go on the stack at the same time (C.R. 503.1, 116.5, 603.3b, 108.1, 109.5). (This happens before players get priority to cast instant spells, such as Reins of Power [C.R. 114.1a], which means that for such spells, they will go on the stack above the triggered abilities [C.R. 405.2] and get to resolve before them [C.R. 116.4].) However, for each such ability, if that player no longer controls the creature it refers to when that ability resolves, they can't sacrifice that creature (but can still choose to pay 1 if possible and desired) (C.R. 603.5, 701.16a, 112.7a, 608.2d, 108.1, 109.5). (Note that a player can sacrifice a permanent only if they control it [C.R. 701.16a].)
A notable case is abilities of the form "At the beginning of [step or phase], if [condition], ..." (examples include Land Tax and Might Makes Right). Such an ability triggers only at the beginning of the given step or phase and only if the given condition is true at that moment (C.R. 603.4, 603.2), and that ability will get to resolve only if that condition still holds upon resolving (C.R. 603.4, 608.2a). Nothing a player does during that step or phase will change whether that ability will trigger. See also this thread. (Note that the ability acquired from Pendrell Mists doesn't have this form.)
EDIT: Add rule citations after comment 4 was posted.
OK, just to put things in layman terms so to speak... let's say the only creature in play is a 1/1 creature controlled by my opponent and on my side I have Pendrell Mists in play. Let's look at two scenarios
Scenario 1) It's now the beginning of MY Upkeep step. Pendrell Mists doesn't trigger because I don't control any creatures. I play Reins of Power and take control of my opponent's creature. When Reins of Power resolves there are no triggers on the stack. I can not sacrifice the creature to Pendrell Mists because it never triggered. Is that about right?
Scenario 2) It's now the beginning of my OPPONENT'S Upkeep step. Pendrell Mists triggers, note the text "sacrifice this creature unless YOU pay one". Now, I play Reins of Power. When that resolves, I will control the 1/1 creature. Now Pendrell Mist's triggered ability resolves. Does the "YOU" in the card text mean my opponent or does it refer to the current controller of the creature? If the "YOU" refers to my opponent, if they didn't pay the 1 mana, the creature wouldn't be sacrificed since they can't sacrifice a creature they don't control. If the "YOU" refers to the controller (me), then I could opt to not pay it and I could sacrifice the creature. So based on what you said, the "YOU" still refers to my opponent. Is that also about right?
Pendrell Mists grants an ability to all creatures, so it is the creatures' abilities that trigger, not the enchantment's. That one doesn't have any triggered abilities to trigger.
1) But yes, there is no trigger that asks you for a sacrifice of the creature you took control of.
2) Your opponent is the player refered to by "you", because he controls the ability on the stack, and that is because he controlled the source when the ability triggered. The source being the creature, not the enhantment granting it an ability. He doesn't control the creature at the time the trigger resolves, so he can't sacrifice it.
A notable case is abilities of the form "At the beginning of [step or phase], if [condition], ..." (examples include Land Tax and Might Makes Right). Such an ability triggers only at the beginning of the given step or phase and only if the given condition is true at that moment (C.R. 603.4, 603.2), and that ability will get to resolve only if that condition still holds upon resolving (C.R. 603.4, 608.2a). Nothing a player does during that step or phase will change whether that ability will trigger.
So if I had Land Tax and Zuran Orb in play on my side and the same number of lands in my play as my opponent, I could NOT sacrifice a land to Zuran Orb at the beginning of my upkeep to trigger Land Tax since Land Tax's trigger goes off (or doesn't) before the stack begins to resolve, is that correct?
A notable case is abilities of the form "At the beginning of [step or phase], if [condition], ..." (examples include Land Tax and Might Makes Right). Such an ability triggers only at the beginning of the given step or phase and only if the given condition is true at that moment (C.R. 603.4, 603.2), and that ability will get to resolve only if that condition still holds upon resolving (C.R. 603.4, 608.2a). Nothing a player does during that step or phase will change whether that ability will trigger.
So if I had Land Tax and Zuran Orb in play on my side and the same number of lands in my play as my opponent, I could NOT sacrifice a land to Zuran Orb at the beginning of my upkeep to trigger Land Tax since Land Tax's trigger goes off (or doesn't) before the stack begins to resolve, is that correct?
Correct, Land Tax will check for its trigger condition before you get the chance to take any action. So if it isn't true, then you can't act to make it true to get it to trigger.
A notable case is abilities of the form "At the beginning of [step or phase], if [condition], ..." (examples include Land Tax and Might Makes Right). Such an ability triggers only at the beginning of the given step or phase and only if the given condition is true at that moment (C.R. 603.4, 603.2), and that ability will get to resolve only if that condition still holds upon resolving (C.R. 603.4, 608.2a). Nothing a player does during that step or phase will change whether that ability will trigger.
So if I had Land Tax and Zuran Orb in play on my side and the same number of lands in my play as my opponent, I could NOT sacrifice a land to Zuran Orb at the beginning of my upkeep to trigger Land Tax since Land Tax's trigger goes off (or doesn't) before the stack begins to resolve, is that correct?
Better stop using that incoorect terminology, it will get you to understand the game and its interactions way better by using the correct terms. The Stack cannot resolve. It is a game zone like the hand or the battlefield, where objects can reside, in this specific case spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities. Those are the only things that can resolve. And they do so one at a time, with all players getting the opportunity to respond before the next thing resolves. Those responses, if they also happen to use the stack, will be added on top and get to resolve before the thing they were responding to.
If Land Tax triggers, that trigger will go on the stack before you can do anything. But that trigger will do nothing until it resolves. and all players can respond before it does. A lot of things can happen, theoretically an arbitrarily large number of things, before the trigger resolves. Because players can respond, let some responses resolve, respond again, etc. all with the trigger waiting on the very bottom of the stack. But you cannot make a triggered ability trigger retroactivly. The beginning of the upkeep has passed before the trigger even makes it to the stack. It is a specific point in time in the turn, not a duration.
Better stop using that incoorect terminology, it will get you to understand the game and its interactions way better by using the correct terms. The Stack cannot resolve. It is a game zone like the hand or the battlefield, where objects can reside, in this specific case spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities. Those are the only things that can resolve. And they do so one at a time, with all players getting the opportunity to respond before the next thing resolves. Those responses, if they also happen to use the stack, will be added on top and get to resolve before the thing they were responding to.
As the objects on the stack resolve, I think it's fair to say that the stack resolves as well, maybe not in game terms, but linguistically I think it's a fair description. That being said, I should use the "proper" game/rule terminology, you're right of course, in game terms it's the items/objects on the stack that resolve and not the stack itself.
The problem is, that saying "the Stack resolves" implies, at least for some people, that all the objects resolve now, which is simply not the case. Only the top object resolves, and then it's response time again already.
Along the same lines, if I had Kjeldoran Outpost and Smokestack in play on my side, there would be no "window" at the beginning of my upkeep to create a soldier token with Kjeldoran Outpost to sacrifice to Smokestack, is that correct? If I wanted to create a solider token to sacrifice to Smokestack, the last opportunity would be during my opponent's End step?
Along the same lines, if I had Kjeldoran Outpost and Smokestack in play on my side, there would be no "window" at the beginning of my upkeep to create a soldier token with Kjeldoran Outpost to sacrifice to Smokestack, is that correct? If I wanted to create a solider token to sacrifice to Smokestack, the last opportunity would be during my opponent's End step?
No, that's not correct. When an ability that says it triggers "at the beginning of" a given step or phase, such as either ability of Smokestack or the ability granted to creatures by Pendrell Mists (C.R. 108.1), triggers, it doesn't do anything right away (C.R. 603.2). Rather, the triggered ability goes on the stack the next time a player would get priority (which would not be at the beginning of that step or phase) (C.R. 603.3), and players can activate an activated ability (such as Kjeldoran Outpost's last ability) in response to that triggered ability, so that the activated ability will get to resolve before the triggered ability does (C.R. 116.7).
Semi-related; what happens when a permanent with a "at the begining of your upkeep..." trigger enters the battlefield at the begining of your upkeep? Do you get the trigger?
If not, is it related to the reason why creatures entering the battlefield during your upkeep don't have haste?
If the permanent with an “at the beginning of your upkeep” trigger isn’t on the battlefield as the upkeep step begins, then it won’t trigger that turn. This is because the beginning of the upkeep only happens, well, at the beginning, so anything that enters the battlefield after the upkeep has started cannot retroactively get a “beginning of upkeep” ability to trigger.
As for your second question, haste isn’t something that creatures generally have unless it’s an ability of the card itself, or another source is giving it haste. I think you mean to ask about summoning sickness, which lasts until you’ve controlled a creature continuously since the *start* of your most recent turn. Since a creature that enters the battlefield during your upkeep step wasn’t under your control as the turn started, it will indeed be affected by summoning sickness until your next turn.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, the ability gained this way by each creature that player controls will trigger, and all such abilities will go on the stack at the same time (C.R. 503.1, 116.5, 603.3b, 108.1, 109.5). (This happens before players get priority to cast instant spells, such as Reins of Power [C.R. 114.1a], which means that for such spells, they will go on the stack above the triggered abilities [C.R. 405.2] and get to resolve before them [C.R. 116.4].) However, for each such ability, if that player no longer controls the creature it refers to when that ability resolves, they can't sacrifice that creature (but can still choose to pay 1 if possible and desired) (C.R. 603.5, 701.16a, 112.7a, 608.2d, 108.1, 109.5). (Note that a player can sacrifice a permanent only if they control it [C.R. 701.16a].)
A notable case is abilities of the form "At the beginning of [step or phase], if [condition], ..." (examples include Land Tax and Might Makes Right). Such an ability triggers only at the beginning of the given step or phase and only if the given condition is true at that moment (C.R. 603.4, 603.2), and that ability will get to resolve only if that condition still holds upon resolving (C.R. 603.4, 608.2a). Nothing a player does during that step or phase will change whether that ability will trigger. See also this thread. (Note that the ability acquired from Pendrell Mists doesn't have this form.)
EDIT: Add rule citations after comment 4 was posted.
Scenario 1) It's now the beginning of MY Upkeep step. Pendrell Mists doesn't trigger because I don't control any creatures. I play Reins of Power and take control of my opponent's creature. When Reins of Power resolves there are no triggers on the stack. I can not sacrifice the creature to Pendrell Mists because it never triggered. Is that about right?
Scenario 2) It's now the beginning of my OPPONENT'S Upkeep step. Pendrell Mists triggers, note the text "sacrifice this creature unless YOU pay one". Now, I play Reins of Power. When that resolves, I will control the 1/1 creature. Now Pendrell Mist's triggered ability resolves. Does the "YOU" in the card text mean my opponent or does it refer to the current controller of the creature? If the "YOU" refers to my opponent, if they didn't pay the 1 mana, the creature wouldn't be sacrificed since they can't sacrifice a creature they don't control. If the "YOU" refers to the controller (me), then I could opt to not pay it and I could sacrifice the creature. So based on what you said, the "YOU" still refers to my opponent. Is that also about right?
1) But yes, there is no trigger that asks you for a sacrifice of the creature you took control of.
2) Your opponent is the player refered to by "you", because he controls the ability on the stack, and that is because he controlled the source when the ability triggered. The source being the creature, not the enhantment granting it an ability. He doesn't control the creature at the time the trigger resolves, so he can't sacrifice it.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
So if I had Land Tax and Zuran Orb in play on my side and the same number of lands in my play as my opponent, I could NOT sacrifice a land to Zuran Orb at the beginning of my upkeep to trigger Land Tax since Land Tax's trigger goes off (or doesn't) before the stack begins to resolve, is that correct?
Better stop using that incoorect terminology, it will get you to understand the game and its interactions way better by using the correct terms. The Stack cannot resolve. It is a game zone like the hand or the battlefield, where objects can reside, in this specific case spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities. Those are the only things that can resolve. And they do so one at a time, with all players getting the opportunity to respond before the next thing resolves. Those responses, if they also happen to use the stack, will be added on top and get to resolve before the thing they were responding to.
If Land Tax triggers, that trigger will go on the stack before you can do anything. But that trigger will do nothing until it resolves. and all players can respond before it does. A lot of things can happen, theoretically an arbitrarily large number of things, before the trigger resolves. Because players can respond, let some responses resolve, respond again, etc. all with the trigger waiting on the very bottom of the stack. But you cannot make a triggered ability trigger retroactivly. The beginning of the upkeep has passed before the trigger even makes it to the stack. It is a specific point in time in the turn, not a duration.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
As the objects on the stack resolve, I think it's fair to say that the stack resolves as well, maybe not in game terms, but linguistically I think it's a fair description. That being said, I should use the "proper" game/rule terminology, you're right of course, in game terms it's the items/objects on the stack that resolve and not the stack itself.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Semi-related; what happens when a permanent with a "at the begining of your upkeep..." trigger enters the battlefield at the begining of your upkeep? Do you get the trigger?
If not, is it related to the reason why creatures entering the battlefield during your upkeep don't have haste?
As for your second question, haste isn’t something that creatures generally have unless it’s an ability of the card itself, or another source is giving it haste. I think you mean to ask about summoning sickness, which lasts until you’ve controlled a creature continuously since the *start* of your most recent turn. Since a creature that enters the battlefield during your upkeep step wasn’t under your control as the turn started, it will indeed be affected by summoning sickness until your next turn.
Commander/EDH Decks:
BRG The Blood of Jund - Kresh the Bloodbraided BRG
WR The Blades of Goldnight - Gisela, Blade of Goldnight WR