I found a previous thread explaining that Karador, Ghost Chieftain can cast spells with Bestow from the graveyard, but the thread was from before the recent rules change.
I know you cannot flash bestow when you have Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir in play under the current rules, because you are no longer casting a creature, it is an enchantment and cannot be flashed.
Did this rules change also change the interaction with Karador?
Karador's second ability says "one creature card from your graveyard", not "one creature spell from your graveyard", and that "card" refers to the card in "your graveyard", so what is relevant for the purposes of that ability is what card types the card in that graveyard has, not the card types of the spell that card would become (compare C.R. 109.2a with C.R. 109.2b, respectively). Thus, if you control Karador, you can, during your turn, cast one creature card with bestow from your graveyard and make use of bestow this way, even though the resulting spell will no longer be a creature spell (C.R. 702.102a, 205.1a). See also this thread.
EDIT (Jan. 23. 2020): See comment 11.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Struck out remaining text in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths. Now, in general, for the purposes of Karador's second ability, what is relevant is what card types the spell in question has.
Teferi also refers to creature cards. Can you explain why it is different?
Teferi's second ability refers to "[c]reature cards you own that aren't on the battlefield", including creature cards "you own" on the stack (C.R. 400.1; under C.R. 111.1, a "spell is a card on the stack"). If you cast a creature card with flash and bestow any time you couldn't otherwise cast it, but any time you could cast an instant, and that spell no longer has flash after C.R. 601.2b, when the choice is made to apply bestow, that spell can no longer be cast at C.R. 601.2e (C.R. 611.3b, 112.6, 702.8a, 702.102a; note that C.R. 601.3b-c apply only to effects that let a player cast a spell "as though it had flash" under certain circumstances — e.g., Rout [C.R. 108.1] or Prophet of Kruphix — which doesn't apply to Teferi's second ability).
Let's see if I get it right.
Teferi gets stopped by 601.2e, because the spell no longer has Flash when 601.2e checks for legality.
Karador is not concerned by 601.2e because it allows the player to cast a card and doesn't care about the spell it becomes when 601.2e checks it.
Correct?
Let's see if I get it right.
Teferi gets stopped by 601.2e, because the spell no longer has Flash when 601.2e checks for legality.
The casting of the spell is made illegal due to C.R. 601.2e for the reason given.
Karador is not concerned by 601.2e because it allows the player to cast a card and doesn't care about the spell it becomes when 601.2e checks it.
Correct?
Considering your knowledge of the game, I am convinced the ruling you provided is correct. Still, I feel the need for more explaining.
Upon entering the stack, a card becomes a spell. No problem here.
The first question I have is: while on the stack, is it still a card?
There can only be one of two answers:
1-yes, it is both a spell and a card
2-no, it is only a spell and no longer considered a card (I won't even consider this possibility)
So, if the object is both a card and a spell (which seems to be confirmed by rule 108.4), then a new question arises:
Are the characteristics of the card the same as those of the spell?
There can only be one of two answers:
3-yes, the spell and the card have the exact same characteristics
4-no, there can be differences
The fact that Karador's permission allows a player to cast a creature card which happens to be a non creature spell makes me assume the latter.
My main question is: am I correct to assume that answers #1 and #4 are the right ones?
Of course, this raises the question of rule 601.2e: what exactly is that rule looking for?
A card on the stack is a spell by definition (C.R. 111.1). Thus, answer 1 is true.
And the characteristics of a card in a graveyard can differ from those of the same card on the stack. This is because, in general, an object that moves from one zone to another (e.g., from the graveyard to the stack under C.R. 601.2a) becomes a new object (C.R. 400.7). A related example is a Clone card entering the battlefield from the graveyard and becoming a copy of another creature as a result (C.R. 706.2, 613.1a, 613.4). In any case, a "card", as used in Teferi's and Karador's second abilitiessecond ability, means "an object represented by a Magic card" (C.R. 108.2; see also C.R. 109.1, 109.2a).
EDIT (Jan. 10): Correctness edit.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Edited to conform to update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
Thank you.
As a follow up question (which would then clear all my uncertainties), would I be correct to assume that Teferi allows me to cast a morphed Zoetic Cavern under non-sorcery timing?
Thank you.
As a follow up question (which would then clear all my uncertainties), would I be correct to assume that Teferi allows me to cast a morphed Zoetic Cavern under non-sorcery timing?
If you control Teferi and apply Zoetic Cavern's morph upon casting Zoetic Cavern, Zoetic Cavern becomes a face-down creature card before it goes to the stack, assuming you own it and it's not on the battlefield, so that Teferi's second ability would treat the resulting spell as a creature card on the stack and thus give it flash (under C.R. 702.37c, "[a]ny effects ... that would apply to casting a [creature] card ... (and not [necessarily a card with] the face-up card's characteristics) are applied to casting" Zoetic Cavern this way).
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Edited to conform to update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
EDIT (Apr. 25, 2022): Edited.
With the release of Theros Beyond Death, the answer to comment 1 has changed. When that set is released, and in preleases:
If you control Teferi and Karador and would cast a creature card with bestow (but that wouldn't have flash in the absence of Teferi) from your graveyard any time you couldn't otherwise cast that card, but any time you could cast an instant:
You can't choose to cast that card bestowed. In that case, "only [that card's] characteristics as modified by the bestow ability are evaluated to determine if it can be cast" (C.R. 702.103a-c). (But note that that rule speaks of "spells", not "cards".) If you choose to apply bestow, the game would see the card as an Aura enchantment spell, not a creature spell (C.R. 702.103a-c), so that you can't cast that card this way at this time for two reasons: first, it isn't a creature spell (so it can't be cast from a graveyard with Karador), and second, it wouldn't have flash so it can't be cast at this time (C.R. 702.8a; see also C.R. 601.3d). But...
You can still choose to cast the card normally (as a creature spell), since it's a creature card and Teferi would thus give it flash (C.R. 702.8a).
EDIT: Correction after comment 12 was posted and again after comment 15 was posted.
EDIT (Feb. 20, 2022): Edited in view of recent Oracle text changes on Karador.
EDIT (Apr. 25, 2022): Edited.
With the release of Theros Beyond Death, the answer to comment 1 has changed. When that set is released, and in preleases:
If you control Teferi and would cast a creature card with bestow from your graveyard any time you couldn't otherwise cast that card, but any time you could cast an instant:
You can't choose to cast that card bestowed. In that case, "only [that card's] characteristics as modified by the bestow ability are evaluated to determine if it can be cast" (C.R. 702.102a-c). (But note that that rule speaks of "spells", not "cards".) If you choose to apply bestow, the game would see Karador as an Aura enchantment spell, not a creature spell (C.R. 702.102a-c), so that Karador wouldn't have flash and you can't cast Karador this way at that time (C.R. 702.8a; see also C.R. 601.3d). But...
You can still choose to cast the card normally, since it's a creature card and Teferi would thus give it flash (C.R. 702.8a).
EDIT: Correction.
This answers the issue about Teferi under the new rules but not Karador. C.R. 702 doesn't apply because Karador has no keyword ability. The ultimate question is whether checking the legality of moving a card from a particular zone onto the stack is checked immediately under C.R. 601.2a or later after all choices are made for the proposed spell under C.R. 601.2e.
Is there an Oracle or Judge ruling that someone can quote to provide a definitive answer?
The answer to "Kardor and Bestow" is now the same as "Kess and Adventure". Both Bestow and Adventure are worded the same in the CR. You look at an Adventure card as the side you cast *before* you actually put it onto the stack to determine if you are allowed to. You do the same with Bestow now. Since choosing to cast it as a Bestowed spell means it is not a creature, you cannot cast it via Karador.
I know you cannot flash bestow when you have Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir in play under the current rules, because you are no longer casting a creature, it is an enchantment and cannot be flashed.
Did this rules change also change the interaction with Karador?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Karador's second ability says "one creature card from your graveyard", not "one creature spell from your graveyard", and that "card" refers to the card in "your graveyard", so what is relevant for the purposes of that ability is what card types the card in that graveyard has, not the card types of the spell that card would become (compare C.R. 109.2a with C.R. 109.2b, respectively). Thus, if you control Karador, you can, during your turn, cast one creature card with bestow from your graveyard and make use of bestow this way, even though the resulting spell will no longer be a creature spell (C.R. 702.102a, 205.1a). See also this thread.EDIT (Jan. 23. 2020): See comment 11.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Struck out remaining text in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths. Now, in general, for the purposes of Karador's second ability, what is relevant is what card types the spell in question has.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
If you cast a creature card with flash and bestow any time you couldn't otherwise cast it, but any time you could cast an instant, and that spell no longer has flash after C.R. 601.2b, when the choice is made to apply bestow, that spell can no longer be cast at C.R. 601.2e (C.R. 611.3b, 112.6, 702.8a, 702.102a; note that C.R. 601.3b-c apply only to effects that let a player cast a spell "as though it had flash" under certain circumstances — e.g., Rout [C.R. 108.1] or Prophet of Kruphix — which doesn't apply to Teferi's second ability).EDIT (Jan. 23, 2020): See comment 11.
Teferi gets stopped by 601.2e, because the spell no longer has Flash when 601.2e checks for legality.
Karador is not concerned by 601.2e because it allows the player to cast a card and doesn't care about the spell it becomes when 601.2e checks it.
Correct?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
The casting of the spell is made illegal due to C.R. 601.2e for the reason given.Cast a card from their graveyard, yes.EDIT (Jan. 23, 2020): See comment 11.
Upon entering the stack, a card becomes a spell. No problem here.
The first question I have is: while on the stack, is it still a card?
There can only be one of two answers:
1-yes, it is both a spell and a card
2-no, it is only a spell and no longer considered a card (I won't even consider this possibility)
So, if the object is both a card and a spell (which seems to be confirmed by rule 108.4), then a new question arises:
Are the characteristics of the card the same as those of the spell?
There can only be one of two answers:
3-yes, the spell and the card have the exact same characteristics
4-no, there can be differences
The fact that Karador's permission allows a player to cast a creature card which happens to be a non creature spell makes me assume the latter.
My main question is: am I correct to assume that answers #1 and #4 are the right ones?
Of course, this raises the question of rule 601.2e: what exactly is that rule looking for?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
And the characteristics of a card in a graveyard can differ from those of the same card on the stack. This is because, in general, an object that moves from one zone to another (e.g., from the graveyard to the stack under C.R. 601.2a) becomes a new object (C.R. 400.7). A related example is a Clone card entering the battlefield from the graveyard and becoming a copy of another creature as a result (C.R. 706.2, 613.1a, 613.4). In any case, a "card", as used in Teferi's
and Karador's second abilitiessecond ability, means "an object represented by a Magic card" (C.R. 108.2; see also C.R. 109.1, 109.2a).EDIT (Jan. 10): Correctness edit.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Edited to conform to update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
As a follow up question (which would then clear all my uncertainties), would I be correct to assume that Teferi allows me to cast a morphed Zoetic Cavern under non-sorcery timing?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Edited to conform to update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
EDIT (Apr. 25, 2022): Edited.
If you control Teferi and Karador and would cast a creature card with bestow (but that wouldn't have flash in the absence of Teferi) from your graveyard any time you couldn't otherwise cast that card, but any time you could cast an instant:
EDIT: Correction after comment 12 was posted and again after comment 15 was posted.
EDIT (Feb. 20, 2022): Edited in view of recent Oracle text changes on Karador.
EDIT (Apr. 25, 2022): Edited.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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This answers the issue about Teferi under the new rules but not Karador. C.R. 702 doesn't apply because Karador has no keyword ability. The ultimate question is whether checking the legality of moving a card from a particular zone onto the stack is checked immediately under C.R. 601.2a or later after all choices are made for the proposed spell under C.R. 601.2e.
Is there an Oracle or Judge ruling that someone can quote to provide a definitive answer?