Okay so I played Body Double copying Kederekt Leviathan causing all non-land permanents to hand, but in response a player activated their Umezawa's Jitte to kill my Body Double... does this work? or does the Jitte not have a valid target since all of this stuff is still on the stack? If so (or not) what does the stack look like.
Body Double will enter the battlefield as a copy of Keredekt Leviathan, and thus become 5/5, among other things (C.R. 706.2). Players don't get priority between the time you choose whether you will have Body Double become a copy of something (and if so, what), and the time Body Double enters the battlefield (see also C.R. 117.2e). Other players can activate abilities (such as that of Umezawa's Jitte) in response to Body Double itself (while it's still a spell), but they have to do so without knowing whether you will have Body Double become a copy of something (and if so, what), as it enters the battlefield (C.R. 117.7). (Note that the second mode of Umezawa's Jitte's second ability can target only a "creature", that is, a creature on the battlefield, not a spell [C.R. 109.2, 112.1].) See also this thread.
Note also that Body Double has no triggered abilities (it lacks the words "when", "at", and "whenever") (C.R. 603.1).
EDIT: Correction after comment 4 was posted.
EDIT (Jan. 26, 2020): Edited, including because some rules were renumbered with Core Set 2020.
Players can certainly respond to the Leviathan's trigger, though. At that time, the Leviathan is on the battlefield and a legal target for anything that can target creatures. So before anything gets bounced, players have plenty of opportunity to kill it, like with multiple activations of Umezawa's Jitte to give it a total of -5/-5. But killing it won't stop the bounce.
Okay so Body Double is on the table to be a target before the "bounce" occurs, or the Body Double becomes the Leviathan and is targetable before the bounce occurs, or... ??? I guess my basic question is, does the summon spell leave the stack and resolve before the "CITP" effects are put on the stack? ..or do they share the stack? (this is where my confusion is)
The copy effect is a replacement effect, it happens as the Double enters the battlefield, as the spell resolves. This doesn't use the stack and cannot be responded to. If it did, the Double would die for having 0 toughness before it could copy anything. So the Double enters as a Leviathan. Then the Double-Leviathan's trigger goes on the stack, and players can respond to that.
Okay so Body Double is on the table to be a target before the "bounce" occurs, or the Body Double becomes the Leviathan and is targetable before the bounce occurs, or... ??? I guess my basic question is, does the summon spell leave the stack and resolve before the "CITP" effects are put on the stack? ..or do they share the stack? (this is where my confusion is)
thanks for helping guys!
When Body Double resolves, it leaves the stack and enters the battlefield (and it enters as a copy of the chosen creature card, such as Keredekt Leviathan, if one was chosen) (C.R. 608.3); if a creature card was chosen, Body Double will be a copy of that card from the first moment it's on the battlefield (C.R. 611.3c; see also C.R. 603.6b), so before players get priority to activate abilities that target Body Double (such as Umezawa's Jitte's second ability) (C.R. 117.3b, 117.1a). Note that Body Double has no triggered abilities (it lacks the word "when", "whenever", or "at") (C.R. 603.1).
EDIT (Jan. 26, 2020): Edited, including because some rules were renumbered with Core Set 2020.
Okay so Body Double is on the table to be a target before the "bounce" occurs, or the Body Double becomes the Leviathan and is targetable before the bounce occurs, or... ??? I guess my basic question is, does the summon spell leave the stack and resolve before the "CITP" effects are put on the stack? ..or do they share the stack? (this is where my confusion is)
thanks for helping guys!
You cast Body Double. It resolves and is removed from the stack. As it enters, you choose for it to enter as Kederekt Leviathan. The Leviathan's ETB trigger goes on the stack. At this point, they can target the Leviathan. In your example, they activate Umezawa's Jitte five times, targeting the Leviathan each time. Assuming all five triggers resolve, the Leviathan dies. The bounce trigger is still on the stack, and once it resolves, all remaining nonland permanents are bounced.
Okay so Body Double is on the table to be a target before the "bounce" occurs, or the Body Double becomes the Leviathan and is targetable before the bounce occurs, or... ??? I guess my basic question is, does the summon spell leave the stack and resolve before the "CITP" effects are put on the stack? ..or do they share the stack? (this is where my confusion is)
thanks for helping guys!
For a "When ~this~ enters the battlefield," ability to trigger, that object must have entered the battlefield. This means it isn't on the stack.
614. Replacement Effects
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.
614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . “ are replacement effects.
614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
This sequence might help:
Your main phase begins.
You get priority and cast Body Double. You pay the cost of 4U using mana obtained in an unspecified way.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes. Note that the Body Double is not a creature (yet), so it can't be chosen as a target creature for a spell or ability (such as that of Umezawa's Jitte).
The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 2) resolves. Normally, this would just consist of the movement of Body Double from the stack to the battlefield, but there is a replacement effect. You choose a Kederekt Leviathan card in a graveyard for Body Double's replacement effect, so that's how it enters the battlefield. This triggers its ability.
You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. You put "When Kederekt Leviathan enters the battlefield, return all other nonland permanents to their owners' hands." on the stack.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes. (They could use Umezawa's Jitte now, but -1/-1 isn't enough to remove a 5/5 creature. Anyway, even if it had five charges and they used all five that way, removing that creature won't affect the ability put on the stack in step 7.)
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 7) resolves. All other nonland permanents are moved to their owners' hands
Thanks for any help!
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Note also that Body Double has no triggered abilities (it lacks the words "when", "at", and "whenever") (C.R. 603.1).
EDIT: Correction after comment 4 was posted.
EDIT (Jan. 26, 2020): Edited, including because some rules were renumbered with Core Set 2020.
Sorry, a 9/9? Keredekt Leviathan is only a 5/5.
Everything else is absolutely correct, as always. Just wanted to clear up the little typo.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
thanks for helping guys!
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
EDIT (Jan. 26, 2020): Edited, including because some rules were renumbered with Core Set 2020.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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For a "When ~this~ enters the battlefield," ability to trigger, that object must have entered the battlefield. This means it isn't on the stack.
This sequence might help: