Storm and replicate put copies of the spell on the stack via a cast trigger. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, and thus can be countered by anything that can counter a spell, and can be affected by anything that can affect spells. All you have to do is wait until the copies are actually created by the storm trigger or replicate trigger respectively. So you have to let that trigger resolve before you respond. Which you can do because the stack does not resolve as a whole, each item resolves individually with all players getting a chance to respond further before the next item resolves. And that item will be whatever is on top of the stack after all players have passed priority in succession again. If a player responds, that response will be what resolves next.
Although Mindbreak Trap exiles rather than counters spells, the result is similar: a spell that leaves the stack before it resolves (whether by being countered, exiled, or otherwise) doesn't resolve and none of its effects happen (C.R. 701.11a, 701.5a; under C.R. 116.4 and 608.1, for a spell to resolve, all players must pass in a row while it's on top of the stack).
Mindbreak Trap can target "any number of ... spells", including copies of spells made due to storm, replicate, or otherwise (C.R. 114.1a, 702.39a, 702.55a; under C.R. 706.10, a "copy of a spell is itself a spell").
How does this defeat Storm? i.e. Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens? I was told this, but I don't see MBT able to counter. Can someone explain to me this?
Let's suppose the opponent cast 2 spells during their beginning phase, pre-combat main phase, and/or combat phase, then plans to cast Empty the Warrens during their post-combat main phase.
Opponent's post-combat main phase begins.
Opponent gets priority and casts Empty the Warrens. They pay the cost of 3R using mana obtained in an unspecified way. This triggers its storm ability.
Opponent would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. They put "When you cast this spell (Empty the Warrens), copy it for each other spell that was cast before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies."
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and pass.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3) resolves. Opponent copies Empty the Warrens twice. It has no targets, so they don't have to worry about that part.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and cast Mindbreak Trap. The opponent has cast three spells this turn (the two alluded to from earlier phases plus the Empty the Warrens), so this spell costs you 0. You choose three targets: the one cast in step 2 and the two placed on the stack in step 6. You pay the cost of 0.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 8) resolves. You exile all its targets. The Mindbreak Spell goes to your graveyard.
Opponent would get priority, but there are state-based actions to process. The spell copies in exile cease to exist.
Opponent gets priority and ...
If opponent had cast only one spell prior to Empty the Warrens, you would have to pay the full cost of 2UU at step 8, then the two targets would be Empty the Warrens and its one copy. If Empty the Warrens was their first spell cast this turn, storm ceases to be a concern. If they had previously cast more than two spells this turn, there will simply be more targets for Mindbreak Trap.
Also: Shattering Spree how does MBT work on this? Can it stop the initial replicate or does it stop all the replicates?
702.55. Replicate
702.55a Replicate is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell with replicate is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell with replicate is on the stack. “Replicate [cost]” means “As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times” and “When you cast this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies.” Paying a spell’s replicate cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
It works the same way, except that there is a good chance of having to pay full cost for Mindbreak Trap no matter how many replicates exist to be targeted and exiled.
I meant the exile part. Lets assume my opponent has a Storm count of 15 and attempts to Grape Shot for 15 or Empty the Warrens for 15. So I get the free cast of MBT however does that cause the fizzling so there's no Grape Shots/Warrens used?
If you cast Mindbreak Trap while a spell with storm and one or more copies of it are on the stack, you can target that spell and all of its copies this way (C.R. 114.1a, 706.10). And when Mindbreak Trap resolves, each spell or copy of a spell targeted this way is exiled (C.R. 706.10, 608.2c). (Note that a spell that's exiled this way doesn't "fizzle" [see also the Glossary entry for "fizzle"], but all the same, the spell won't resolve; see also my comment 3.)
However, if you cast Mindbreak Trap after the storm ability triggers, but before it resolves, you can't thereby target any copy of a spell yet to be made when the storm ability would resolve (C.R. 702.39a, 114.1a).
The same applies accordingly to replicate (replacing storm with replicate) (C.R. 702.55a).
I meant the exile part. Lets assume my opponent has a Storm count of 15 and attempts to Grape Shot for 15 or Empty the Warrens for 15. So I get the free cast of MBT however does that cause the fizzling so there's no Grape Shots/Warrens used?
I am noty really sure what you mean about "no grape shots used".
When a spell is put on the stack it sit there. If you then exile all spells on the stacks they won't go back to the hand or something. They will be exiled. And since they are exiled they aren't on teh stack so they can't resolve.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote me for replies.
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
I meant the exile part. Lets assume my opponent has a Storm count of 15 and attempts to Grape Shot for 15 or Empty the Warrens for 15. So I get the free cast of MBT however does that cause the fizzling so there's no Grape Shots/Warrens used?
What do you mean "cause the fizzling"? In my sequence, the MBT cast at step 8 would have 16 targets (assuming you mean 15 spells cast prior to Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens). When the MBT resolves, it moves all those targets from the stack to exile. The one card associated with the original spell (cast in step 2) will remain in exile because there is nothing to remove it. The 15 spell copies will disappear from exile a moment later. The stack is empty; nothing is there to potentially resolve.
704.5e If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
706.10. To copy a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”)
Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
Would it have helped if I had finished my sequence with the following?
13. Opponent gets priority and passes.
14. You get priority and pass.
15. Post-combat main phase ends.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Simply saying "Spells not pinin'! Spells passed on! This spell is no more! It has ceased to be! The effects expired and gone to meet its maker! The spell's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the table, it be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-CARD EFFECT!!
That would have worked just fine Also posting the part of the CRD where 704.5 & 706.10
I forgot to ask or couldn't find: When I replicate say Shattering Spree five or six times, is that the same stack that I can use Mindbreak Trap on or is that a new one?
I forgot to ask or couldn't find: When I replicate say Shattering Spree five or six times, is that the same stack that I can use Mindbreak Trap on or is that a new one?
Replicate is a triggered ability that triggers when you cast the spell, just like Storm, and the copies are created quite like the same way (it just looks at something else for the number copies to create). It ends up working the same way for Mindbreak Trap.
And the Stack is a zone that exists in the game from start to finish. There is no such thing as "a new stack".
I forgot to ask or couldn't find: When I replicate say Shattering Spree five or six times, is that the same stack that I can use Mindbreak Trap on or is that a new one?
If you hope for MindTrap to exile all those replicated Spree-copies then, yes, you have to play it on top of them (before they resolve), which can be dubbed the 'same stack' (even though this has no meaning by the actual rules of the game).
The stack is actually much simpler than most beginners may believe (probably because they haven't been taught skillfully). May I kindly suggest you take some time to check up rule 405?
I forgot to ask or couldn't find: When I replicate say Shattering Spree five or six times, is that the same stack that I can use Mindbreak Trap on or is that a new one?
That was what I referred to with "It works the same way" in my first response.
Relevant differences here between storm (as with Empty the Warrens in my original sequence) and replicate (as with Shattering Spree in this question):
The count for storm is how many spells were cast before Empty the Warrens was cast. The count for replicate is how many times you add the replicate cost when casting Shattering Spree.
The free condition for Mindbreak Trap looks at Empty the Warrens and any other spells your opponent cast to increase the storm count. It does not look at payment of any replicate cost.
And THE stack is only created with the start of a game. It is empty frequently (such as every time a step/phase/turn ends), but it does not cease to exist until the game ends.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
All jokes aside, is there a website I can download the Current Rulings Document? Or is there reading materials I learn the how the stack and chains works? I understand how a chain works in Yu-Gi-Oh! But that's a COMPLETELY different game but operates similarly.
@Argus Panoptes: Thank you, that helps too. I thought MBT would remove all the Replicates but I didn't want to assume. We both know how to spell that word. I rather sound stupid asking the same question again than go to an event and look stupid thinking it worked the way I thought it did.
The Basic and Comprehensive Rules can be downloaded at https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules ; rules 405 and 116 in the comprehensive rules should cover everything about the stack and timing and priority. ("Chains" are not a thing in this game, but they seem to resemble the "batches" that were removed from the rules in 1999.) There are also tournament rule documents and recent set Release Notes (essentially FAQ documents) at http://wpn.wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents .
How does this defeat Storm? i.e. Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens? I was told this, but I don't see MBT able to counter. Can someone explain to me this?
Also: Shattering Spree how does MBT work on this? Can it stop the initial replicate or does it stop all the replicates?
Thanks for any help.
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Mindbreak Trap can target "any number of ... spells", including copies of spells made due to storm, replicate, or otherwise (C.R. 114.1a, 702.39a, 702.55a; under C.R. 706.10, a "copy of a spell is itself a spell").
Let's suppose the opponent cast 2 spells during their beginning phase, pre-combat main phase, and/or combat phase, then plans to cast Empty the Warrens during their post-combat main phase.
It works the same way, except that there is a good chance of having to pay full cost for Mindbreak Trap no matter how many replicates exist to be targeted and exiled.
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
However, if you cast Mindbreak Trap after the storm ability triggers, but before it resolves, you can't thereby target any copy of a spell yet to be made when the storm ability would resolve (C.R. 702.39a, 114.1a).
The same applies accordingly to replicate (replacing storm with replicate) (C.R. 702.55a).
I am noty really sure what you mean about "no grape shots used".
When a spell is put on the stack it sit there. If you then exile all spells on the stacks they won't go back to the hand or something. They will be exiled. And since they are exiled they aren't on teh stack so they can't resolve.
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Would it have helped if I had finished my sequence with the following?
13. Opponent gets priority and passes.
14. You get priority and pass.
15. Post-combat main phase ends.
That would have worked just fine Also posting the part of the CRD where 704.5 & 706.10
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
Replicate is a triggered ability that triggers when you cast the spell, just like Storm, and the copies are created quite like the same way (it just looks at something else for the number copies to create). It ends up working the same way for Mindbreak Trap.
And the Stack is a zone that exists in the game from start to finish. There is no such thing as "a new stack".
The stack is actually much simpler than most beginners may believe (probably because they haven't been taught skillfully). May I kindly suggest you take some time to check up rule 405?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Relevant differences here between storm (as with Empty the Warrens in my original sequence) and replicate (as with Shattering Spree in this question):
And THE stack is only created with the start of a game. It is empty frequently (such as every time a step/phase/turn ends), but it does not cease to exist until the game ends.
All jokes aside, is there a website I can download the Current Rulings Document? Or is there reading materials I learn the how the stack and chains works? I understand how a chain works in Yu-Gi-Oh! But that's a COMPLETELY different game but operates similarly.
@Argus Panoptes: Thank you, that helps too. I thought MBT would remove all the Replicates but I didn't want to assume. We both know how to spell that word. I rather sound stupid asking the same question again than go to an event and look stupid thinking it worked the way I thought it did.
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy