So I have a question. When a creature receives lethal damage, or enough -1/-1 counters, it is immediately put into the graveyard as a state based action.
According to rule 704.7, when a Young Wolf that has 1x +1/+1 counter on it is then given 3x -1/-1 counters, when it hits the graveyard it is considered to have 1x +1/+1 counter and 3x -1/-1 counters (and thus undying does not trigger).
I believe this is incorrect, and in direct contradiction to rule 704.5q, which states and +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out (also as a state based action, that surely must happen before a creature is removed.
Therefore I feel like, when the Young Wolf goes to the graveyard, it should, in fact, have 2x -1/-1 counters on it (and no +1/+1 counters), and Undying should trigger.
+1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters annihilating ech other is also a state based acion, and all state based actions happen simultaneously. "Dies" triggers, which undying belongs to, trigger based on the game state right before the creature died. Since the game goes from the Wolf having both kinds of counters to it being in the graveyard, the Wolf's last moment on the battlefield has been with both kinds of counters. Thus undying doesn't trigger.
So there is no order to the state based actions at all? ie. the moment the -1/-1 counters hit, the "dies" triggers, theoretically at the same time as the counter merge would happen? Couldn't the player who owns the item choose which occurs first (given they happen at the same time)?
Indeed there is no order to state based actions, even if you do them in order for practical purposes. They all happen at the same time. (Though there are weird scenarios, where an SBA is replaced with a series of actions that are sequential, yet somehow must also all happen simultaneously with the other SBAs. Don't know, if that issue has been resoled yet.)
Also, you seem to somewhat misunderstand state based actions. They don't happen immediately nor constantly. Rather SBAs are checked frequently right before a player, any player, would receive priority. So a creature does not die immediately upon receiving lethal damage or having its toughness reduced to 0 or less. It stays around for a very brief time until SBAs go around with their check list shortly after that. A "dies" trigger goes off when the creature actually dies, so during the check of SBAs, not when the counters are placed, and that trigger then goes to the stack after SBAs are done.
Hmmm, this seems quite arbitrary... I understand that it's a ruling a single judge made on the spot? So perhaps that is the only reason that this "order of operations" seems to be enforced (ie. dies triggers before counter merge) - because of precedence?
Otherwise it is making no sense to me...
2 things are happening simultaneously - and yet one thing is happening before the other always (dies before counter merge) - and I'm not sure why.
Sorry to harp on about this, I genuinely find it interesting haha
I'm a computer programmer, and we're all about logic and order lol
Hmmm, this seems quite arbitrary... I understand that it's a ruling a single judge made on the spot? So perhaps that is the only reason that this "order of operations" seems to be enforced (ie. dies triggers before counter merge) - because of precedence?
Otherwise it is making no sense to me...
2 things are happening simultaneously - and yet one thing is happening before the other always (dies before counter merge) - and I'm not sure why.
Sorry to harp on about this, I genuinely find it interesting haha
I'm a computer programmer, and we're all about logic and order lol
Arbitrary and arbitrary, the entire set of comprehensive rules are in some sense arbitrary. It is not a rule that some judge made up on the fly some time though. IT is actually rules printed in the comprehensive rules.
And as has been said before, the order of operations you describe is wrong.
Dies doesn't trigger before counters merge, the creature dies and the counters merge simultaneously.
After the SBA are finished the game will see that a creature died and will use last known information to derive whether to trigger undying or not.
Last known inormation is how the creature last looked while it was on the battlefield and at that part it had both kinds of counters and therefore undying won't trigger.
You bring up rules 704.5q and 704.7 and state that counter removal "surely" must happen before the creature dies.
But the rules state otherwise.
704.7 is there precicely to handle cases like a creature dying and counters being removed simultaneously.
Does that clarify it?
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event.
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5q If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
HEre's the most important part:
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
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Rules Advisor
The makers of the game 'arbitrarily' decided that State-Based Actions are to be performed simultaneously. It's a rule of the game.
704.3. (…) the game (…) performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. (…)
The counters are removed at the very same time the creature dies.
'Leaves-the-battlefield' triggered abilities (like Undying) will check how the creature looked at the very last moment before its death.
That also is a rule of the game.
603.10. (…) some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game “looks back in time” to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, (…)
Prior to its death, the creature had counters: so, no trigger.
Rule 704.7 is what is called a 'redundant' rule; the game would work exactly the same without this rule, by combining rules 704.3 & 603.10.
Rule 704.7 has been added to help clarify people sharing the same doubts as you.
Quite a few of these redundant rules are scattered throughout the CR: 506.4a, 506.4b, 508.4b, 602.4 & 603.2a for example.
According to rule 704.7, when a Young Wolf that has 1x +1/+1 counter on it is then given 3x -1/-1 counters, when it hits the graveyard it is considered to have 1x +1/+1 counter and 3x -1/-1 counters (and thus undying does not trigger).
I believe this is incorrect, and in direct contradiction to rule 704.5q, which states and +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out (also as a state based action, that surely must happen before a creature is removed.
Therefore I feel like, when the Young Wolf goes to the graveyard, it should, in fact, have 2x -1/-1 counters on it (and no +1/+1 counters), and Undying should trigger.
Thoughts?
Former Rules Advisor
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(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Also, you seem to somewhat misunderstand state based actions. They don't happen immediately nor constantly. Rather SBAs are checked frequently right before a player, any player, would receive priority. So a creature does not die immediately upon receiving lethal damage or having its toughness reduced to 0 or less. It stays around for a very brief time until SBAs go around with their check list shortly after that. A "dies" trigger goes off when the creature actually dies, so during the check of SBAs, not when the counters are placed, and that trigger then goes to the stack after SBAs are done.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Otherwise it is making no sense to me...
2 things are happening simultaneously - and yet one thing is happening before the other always (dies before counter merge) - and I'm not sure why.
Sorry to harp on about this, I genuinely find it interesting haha
I'm a computer programmer, and we're all about logic and order lol
Arbitrary and arbitrary, the entire set of comprehensive rules are in some sense arbitrary. It is not a rule that some judge made up on the fly some time though. IT is actually rules printed in the comprehensive rules.
And as has been said before, the order of operations you describe is wrong.
Dies doesn't trigger before counters merge, the creature dies and the counters merge simultaneously.
After the SBA are finished the game will see that a creature died and will use last known information to derive whether to trigger undying or not.
Last known inormation is how the creature last looked while it was on the battlefield and at that part it had both kinds of counters and therefore undying won't trigger.
You bring up rules 704.5q and 704.7 and state that counter removal "surely" must happen before the creature dies.
But the rules state otherwise.
704.7 is there precicely to handle cases like a creature dying and counters being removed simultaneously.
Does that clarify it?
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5q If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
HEre's the most important part:
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
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Rules Advisor
The counters are removed at the very same time the creature dies.
'Leaves-the-battlefield' triggered abilities (like Undying) will check how the creature looked at the very last moment before its death.
That also is a rule of the game.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, (…)
Prior to its death, the creature had counters: so, no trigger.
Rule 704.7 is what is called a 'redundant' rule; the game would work exactly the same without this rule, by combining rules 704.3 & 603.10.
Rule 704.7 has been added to help clarify people sharing the same doubts as you.
Quite a few of these redundant rules are scattered throughout the CR: 506.4a, 506.4b, 508.4b, 602.4 & 603.2a for example.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules