This is just something, that's been nagging me for a while today, and I can't find the answers in the CR:
Suppose your commander is face down on the battlefield, but for some reason your opponents don't know it's your commander (e.g. manifested from a randomized library). And you have other face down creatures as well. Do your opponents get to know, which face down permanent of yours is your commander? Do they even get to know, that your commander is on the battlefield? Now, if you attack with your face down commander and it deals combat damage to a player, does that count as commander damage from your commander (how would that be verified?) or from a nameless commander? Or does it not count as commander damage at all?
A face-down commander does deal commander damage (this is a property of the piece of cardboard, essentially). I don't know that the CR covers the rules for verifying that this is your commander, but considering you have access to the information (you can look at the front face of face-down creatures you control) and dealing commander damage to a player free information like a player's life total, it seems you would be obligated to reveal that the face-down creature is your commander at the point it deals damage to a player.
To be honest, this has bugged me for a while as well. The closest any rule comes to saying anything about this is this one:
903.3. Each deck has a legendary creature card designated as its commander. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself. The card retains this designation even when it changes zones.
Now, your situation you presented is part of the issue. We know that the card is the Commander even when face down based on the rule above. But, who actually knows this while in game? In the past, I thought there have been comments on the main EDH website that says the identity of the Commander is always known even in a hidden zone (this presents its own issues of course). Being an attribute of the card itself suggests this makes sense. This implies that this is still information known as the card changes zones since that card is still the card in hidden zones. I am not sure if that is the case but, if not, when does it become known that it is the Commander?
I don't see anything that really explains how this information is presented. Do players just need to keep track of Commander Damage by a face down Commander they control on their own and then, once they deal 21 to a player, they just say "you are dead; this has been my Commander the whole time". That doesn't seem right. But, if it is known which is the Commander when face down, wouldn't we also know which is the Commander in hand and library (if they ever go there)?
A face-down commander does deal commander damage (this is a property of the piece of cardboard, essentially). I don't know that the CR covers the rules for verifying that this is your commander, but considering you have access to the information (you can look at the front face of face-down creatures you control) and dealing commander damage to a player free information like a player's life total, it seems you would be obligated to reveal that the face-down creature is your commander at the point it deals damage to a player.
My conclusion is that you would not be obligated to reveal the information until the fact that it's your commander affects the game state, and aside from the same cases where you have to reveal a face-down permanent's face anyway (zone change, losing the game, etc.), dealing commander damage, since it affects something that's public information (commander damage count), is the only thing I can think of.EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot about lieutenants and the like. You can't choose to have the lieutenant ability not work, and the fact that it is currently "on" would be free information in a casual setting.
EDIT: To note, the fact that a face-down commander can be put in the command zone as it leaves the battlefield is clearly not in question, even if its owner didn't control it and didn't know beforehand that it was their commander. (e.g. Gather Specimens cast in response to a manifest spell or ability.) I would say that's in part because of 707.9 which forces to reveal the card as it moves from the battlefield, but further, I believe an opponent taking your commander from a hidden zone and exiling it face-down (e.g. Gonti, Lord of Luxury) forces them to reveal it and ask you whether you want it to be put in the command zone, in order to comply with 903.9.
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner's hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
[quote from="Lithl »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/800738-face-down-commander?comment=2"]My take is that you would not be obligated to reveal the information until the fact that it's your commander affects the game state, and aside from the same cases where you have to reveal a face-down permanent's face anyway (zone change, losing the game, etc.), dealing commander damage, since it affects something that's public information (commander damage count), is the only thing I can think of.
But that just brings up memory issues, especially if a deck is Bant morph or Animorphs. The Rules Committee needs to fix this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
[quote from="Lithl »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/800738-face-down-commander?comment=2"]My take is that you would not be obligated to reveal the information until the fact that it's your commander affects the game state, and aside from the same cases where you have to reveal a face-down permanent's face anyway (zone change, losing the game, etc.), dealing commander damage, since it affects something that's public information (commander damage count), is the only thing I can think of.
But that just brings up memory issues, especially if a deck is Bant morph or Animorphs. The Rules Committee needs to fix this.
The rules are made so that there is no memory issue with face-down permanents. Each one must be kept distinct and tracked individually from the time it exists/is turned face down. A player who controls mutliple face-down permanents cannot "shuffle them around" to try and confuse people about each of those permanents' history. You can use stickers or faux-counters or anything of the sort to help with this.
707.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
And there would be no memory issue with commander damage since as I said, the commander must be revealed at that point, and the damage counted.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Suppose your commander is face down on the battlefield, but for some reason your opponents don't know it's your commander (e.g. manifested from a randomized library). And you have other face down creatures as well. Do your opponents get to know, which face down permanent of yours is your commander? Do they even get to know, that your commander is on the battlefield? Now, if you attack with your face down commander and it deals combat damage to a player, does that count as commander damage from your commander (how would that be verified?) or from a nameless commander? Or does it not count as commander damage at all?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Now, your situation you presented is part of the issue. We know that the card is the Commander even when face down based on the rule above. But, who actually knows this while in game? In the past, I thought there have been comments on the main EDH website that says the identity of the Commander is always known even in a hidden zone (this presents its own issues of course). Being an attribute of the card itself suggests this makes sense. This implies that this is still information known as the card changes zones since that card is still the card in hidden zones. I am not sure if that is the case but, if not, when does it become known that it is the Commander?
I don't see anything that really explains how this information is presented. Do players just need to keep track of Commander Damage by a face down Commander they control on their own and then, once they deal 21 to a player, they just say "you are dead; this has been my Commander the whole time". That doesn't seem right. But, if it is known which is the Commander when face down, wouldn't we also know which is the Commander in hand and library (if they ever go there)?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
is the only thing I can think of.EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot about lieutenants and the like. You can't choose to have the lieutenant ability not work, and the fact that it is currently "on" would be free information in a casual setting.EDIT: To note, the fact that a face-down commander can be put in the command zone as it leaves the battlefield is clearly not in question, even if its owner didn't control it and didn't know beforehand that it was their commander. (e.g. Gather Specimens cast in response to a manifest spell or ability.) I would say that's in part because of 707.9 which forces to reveal the card as it moves from the battlefield, but further, I believe an opponent taking your commander from a hidden zone and exiling it face-down (e.g. Gonti, Lord of Luxury) forces them to reveal it and ask you whether you want it to be put in the command zone, in order to comply with 903.9.
But that just brings up memory issues, especially if a deck is Bant morph or Animorphs. The Rules Committee needs to fix this.
On phasing: