Forced attack question. I have a Walking Desecration and I tap to force my opponent who has a Silent Arbiter. The debate is he has two other creatures Dragonspeaker shaman he is trying to attack first with one of the shamans first.He says the shaman attackimg us keeping the "attacks if able from happening. I seem to think that attacks each turn if able would force the arbiter to attack in front of the others. He is trying to save the arbiter but I think the Arbiter's ability is what is working against it. Anyone have any insight on this?
Note that Walking Desecration's ability has only creatures of the creature type of your choice (such as Human, Barbarian, or Shaman) attack this turn if able (C.R. 108.1); the ability doesn't force other creatures to attack if able.
In this scenario, assuming you chose one of Dragonspeaker Shaman's creature types for Walking Desecrator's ability—
if Dragonspeaker Shaman or another creature of the creature type you chose attacks, no other creature can also attack since doing so would violate Silent Arbiter's attacking restriction, but
if one or more creatures are required to attack, exactly one of them must do so.
That's because as many requirements on attacking (such as from Walking Desecration) as possible must be followed such that no restrictions on attacking, such as "[n]o more than one creature can attack each combat", are violated (C.R. 508.1c-d).
As peteroupc said, as many requirements on attacking must be followed such that no restrictions on attacking are violated.
It seems you want Silent Arbiter to attack, so let's assume you chose construct. There are four options:
If multiple creatures attack, it violates the restriction.
If only one of the shamans attacks, it doesn't violate the restriction but does violate the requirement.
If only the arbiter attacks, it doesn't violate the restriction or the requirement.
If nothing attacks, it doesn't violate the restriction but does violate the requirement.
Thanks. I chose the desecration to make only constructs attack. The main debate is if he even gets the opportunity to let any others attack first since silent arbiter only let's one attack. And walking desecration says constructs attack this turn if able. Anyway you guys can act this out specifically in writing from the beginning of combat phase to declare attackers so I may be able to tell him how it will work.
Thanks. I chose the desecration to make only constructs attack. The main debate is if he even gets the opportunity to let any others attack first
There is no "attack first".
508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 721, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
508.1a The active player chooses which creatures that they control, if any, will attack. The chosen creatures must be untapped, and each one must either have haste or have been controlled by the active player continuously since the turn began.
508.1b If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, the active player announces which player or planeswalker each of the chosen creatures is attacking.
508.1c The active player checks each creature they control to see whether it’s affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can’t attack, or that it can’t attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
Example: A player controls two creatures, each with a restriction that states “[This creature] can’t attack alone.” It’s legal to declare both as attackers.
508.1d The active player checks each creature they control to see whether it’s affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature attacks if able, or that it attacks if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can’t attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed. If a requirement that says a creature attacks if able during a certain turn refers to a turn with multiple combat phases, the creature attacks if able during each declare attackers step in that turn.
Example: A player controls two creatures: one that “attacks if able” and one with no abilities. An effect states “No more than one creature can attack each turn.” The only legal attack is for just the creature that “attacks if able” to attack. It’s illegal to attack with the other creature, attack with both, or attack with neither.
508.1e If any of the chosen creatures have banding or a “bands with other” ability, the active player announces which creatures, if any, are banded with which. (See rule 702.21, “Banding.”)
508.1f The active player taps the chosen creatures. Tapping a creature when it’s declared as an attacker isn’t a cost; attacking simply causes creatures to become tapped.
508.1g If there are any optional costs to attack with the chosen creatures (expressed as costs a player may pay “as” a creature attacks), the active player chooses which, if any, they will pay.
508.1h If any of the chosen creatures require paying costs to attack, or if any optional costs to attack were chosen, the active player determines the total cost to attack. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, ignore this change.
508.1i If any of the costs require mana, the active player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”).
508.1j Once the player has enough mana in their mana pool, they pay all costs in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
508.1k Each chosen creature still controlled by the active player becomes an attacking creature. It remains an attacking creature until it’s removed from combat or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. See rule 506.4.
508.1m Any abilities that trigger on attackers being declared trigger.
At step 508.1d, you perform the analysis described by shinike, you demonstrate that his declaration is illegal, the process resets to the beginning (508.1a), and he apologizes for wasting everyone's time. In particular, note that the only difference between your question and the example in 508.1d is the sources of the effects.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
I chose the desecration to make only constructs attack.
Since you chose 'Construct' to attack, then Silent Arbiter MUST attack.
And it will attack ALONE, because Silent Arbiter forbids attacking with more than one.
By attacking with only one creature, your opponent obeyed Silent Arbiter's RESTRICTION (rule 508.1c: 'cannot attack').
By attacking with Silent Arbiter, your opponent obeyed Walking Desecration's REQUIREMENT (rule 508.1d: 'must attack').
Players must obey ALL restrictions. No exception!
Players must try to obey as much requirements as possible.
If opponent were to attack with one creature, but not Silent Arbiter, then the number of requirements that would be obeyed would be fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed. Rule 508.1d makes this an illegal attack.
Can I use walking desecration to have a creature with shroud attack?
Cat (for example) is a creature type, and you can absolutely name that for Walking Desecration's ability even if someone controls Scythe Tiger and/or Steppe Lynx. Cat creatures (including those, if present) will then attack this turn if able.
The ability of Walking Desecration doesn't target, so shroud can not interfere with it. Is that what you are asking?
702.18. Shroud
702.18a Shroud is a static ability. “Shroud” means “This permanent or player can’t be the target of
spells or abilities.”
702.18b Multiple instances of shroud on the same permanent or player are redundant.
115.10. Spells and abilities can affect objects and players they don’t target. In general, those objects and
players aren’t chosen until the spell or ability resolves. See rule 608, “Resolving Spells and
Abilities.”
115.10a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that
object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the
word “target” in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a
target.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Can I use walking desecration to have a creature with shroud attack? Does this ability count as an area effect?
Hi, welcome to MTGSalvation! We're always happy to answer your rules questions, but in the future, please post them in a new thread rather than reviving an old one that happens to mention the card you want to ask about. This helps keep threads shorter and in their proper timeframe, and it makes individual questions more easily searchable. With Argus Panoptes having answered you comprehensively above, I'm going to lock this.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
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Thanks.
In this scenario, assuming you chose one of Dragonspeaker Shaman's creature types for Walking Desecrator's ability—
EDIT: Clarification after comment 4 was posted.
It seems you want Silent Arbiter to attack, so let's assume you chose construct. There are four options:
Thanks
At step 508.1d, you perform the analysis described by shinike, you demonstrate that his declaration is illegal, the process resets to the beginning (508.1a), and he apologizes for wasting everyone's time. In particular, note that the only difference between your question and the example in 508.1d is the sources of the effects.
And it will attack ALONE, because Silent Arbiter forbids attacking with more than one.
By attacking with only one creature, your opponent obeyed Silent Arbiter's RESTRICTION (rule 508.1c: 'cannot attack').
By attacking with Silent Arbiter, your opponent obeyed Walking Desecration's REQUIREMENT (rule 508.1d: 'must attack').
Players must obey ALL restrictions. No exception!
Players must try to obey as much requirements as possible.
If opponent were to attack with one creature, but not Silent Arbiter, then the number of requirements that would be obeyed would be fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed. Rule 508.1d makes this an illegal attack.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Cat (for example) is a creature type, and you can absolutely name that for Walking Desecration's ability even if someone controls Scythe Tiger and/or Steppe Lynx. Cat creatures (including those, if present) will then attack this turn if able.
The ability of Walking Desecration doesn't target, so shroud can not interfere with it. Is that what you are asking?