The opponent attacks with just his Kitesail Freebooter and passes priority (does not point to, look at, or indicate any triggers from the Noble Hierarchs.
So I ask. "He's a 1/2?" - No response. I say "Okay so He's a 2/1, I'm going to move to declare blocks, okay?" - He nods yes.
I say "Declare Blocls; I'm going to block the freebooter with my Stormbreath Dragon.
He then points to my stormbreath and said "He dies" and then immediately I argue and call over the judge. The judge says my opponent doesn't need to say anything about the exalted until it becomes relevant. I ask why it wasn't relevant when I asked if the Freebooter was a 1/2 and the judge said "What was his response" So I told him he said nothing so I reiterated it was a 1/2 and asked to move to blockers. The judge said I needed to specifically ask him and use the specific words "What is his power and toughness" in which I was trying to argue that's exactly what I did twice when asking if it was a 1/2.
I don't understand the point in missed triggers at competitive REL. I remember seeing someone lose in a pro-tour or Grand Prix because they didn't get their exalted trigger even though they pointed at the exalted but didn't vocalize it. My opponent neither pointed, vocalized, and did some BS communication to get away with keeping his triggers without any obvious use of his board state.
I'm obviously still salty, but can someone explain to me WHY exalted triggers can work this way. Is there any way to NOT miss exalted triggers?
He then points to my stormbreath and said "He dies" and then immediately I argue and call over the judge. The judge says my opponent doesn't need to say anything about the exalted until it becomes relevant. I ask why it wasn't relevant when I asked if the Freebooter was a 1/2 and the judge said "What was his response" So I told him he said nothing so I reiterated it was a 1/2 and asked to move to blockers. The judge said I needed to specifically ask him and use the specific words "What is his power and toughness" in which I was trying to argue that's exactly what I did twice when asking if it was a 1/2.
Piggybacking on this thread:
Is the question "Is it [power & toughness]?" not the same as "What is its power & toughness?" ? Can someone confirm that?
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I'm curious about that too. My thought was that I'm saying "is it a 1/2" (which he did at least nod to with me also asking is it okay to move to declare blocks) - this should count as asking the power toughness
There was no confirmation of the P/T of the creature. The nod was to move to blockers.
You do not need to recognize triggers until they have an effect on the board state. The point where exalted triggers do that is during the combat damage step. It is not your opponents job to help you make an optimal play.
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According to your post the opponent didn't confirm the size of the creature, they confirmed you moving to block.
So I ask. "He's a 1/2?" - No response. I say "Okay so He's a 2/1, I'm going to move to declare blocks, okay?" - He nods yes.
you asked how big it was and got no response. You then asked to move to blockers and received an affirmative. A better way to handle this would be to call a judge when the opponent refuses to respond to your question of how large are his creatures. If this is a habit it can be considered unsportsman like behavior.
It seems odd to be salty about trying to trick a player out of a trigger and failing to get them.
I agree about that, but how is me asking about the power and toughness of the creature not considered "affecting the board state." Exalted is a triggered ability. I'm asking about the P/T of a creature. Doesn't THAT become the point which it's relevant? I'm asking before I declare blockers.
In any other "trigger" interaction, SOME sort of acknowledgement of the triggers SHOULD happen before change of phase/conversation about the creature in question
I agree about that, but how is me asking about the power and toughness of the creature not considered "affecting the board state." Exalted is a triggered ability. I'm asking about the P/T of a creature. Doesn't THAT become the point which it's relevant? I'm asking before I declare blockers.
In any other "trigger" interaction, SOME sort of acknowledgement of the triggers SHOULD happen before change of phase/conversation about the creature in question
In a sanctioned tournament, a player has forgotten a triggered ability only if they "tak[e] an action past the point where [that] ability would have an observable impact on the game" (M.T.R. 4.5; see also this thread). A change in a creature's power and toughness during the declare attackers step is generally not observable until that creature assigns combat damage or a creature assigns combat damage to it (it might be observable sooner if you also controlled, say, an untapped Cyclops Tyrant). In such a tournament, asking about the power and toughness of that creature doesn't give that information an "observable impact" within the meaning of M.T.R. 4.5 — but what is required is that the player being asked "may not represent [that] information incorrectly" (M.T.R. 4.1).
It wasn't really my point of contention, but you all are saying he was nodding to moving phases, when I said "so his power and toughness is 1/2, so I will move to declare blockers?"
If we're arguing semantics, I clearly made 2 statements which he nodded to. Why is everyone stating "he only nodded to move to blockers" If we're playing the semantics game and not a magic game, I clearly won that one. Why is everyone saying the nod clearly wasnt confirming 1/2 without exalted triggers?
Im not salty about "trying to trick a player out of triggers" because it was a competitive REL event, and from my past experiences, if you miss your triggers, well... you miss your triggers. It's your fault. This is my first experience where triggered abilities don't work the same as they usually do (where apparently you don't need to acknowledge any triggers whatsoever and it's fine... until 2 phases later, that is.)
So I'm asking in declare attackers about P/T (me trying to acknowledge there should be announced triggers and there weren't), then I'm confirming AGAIN before changing phases. I was trying to be SPORTSMANLIKE - not whatever you are claiming.
It is not clear to me that you "won the semantics game". In fact, your explanation:
I reiterated it was a 1/2 and asked to move to blockers.
sounds like you just said it's a 1/2, and asked to assign blockers. Your opponent doesn't have to correct you when you say something incorrect to yourself. If your opponent interpreted it as such, it's miscommunication, and how to handle it is up to the judge. (It seems both of you were aware of the trigger all the way, so I would rewind the situation.)
That said, the judge's words are indeed weird. Nothing in the rules indicates answering to "What are its P/T?" and nodding to "Is it a 1/2?" are different from judging perspective. If you clearly asked if it was a 1/2 when moving to the next step, then the trigger was missed.
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Just finished a PPTQ where I was facing Humans with my RG Ponza.
The play in question, I have a Stormbreath Dragon and my opponent has a Kitesail Freebooter and 3x Noble Hierarchin play.
The opponent attacks with just his Kitesail Freebooter and passes priority (does not point to, look at, or indicate any triggers from the Noble Hierarchs.
So I ask. "He's a 1/2?" - No response. I say "Okay so He's a 2/1, I'm going to move to declare blocks, okay?" - He nods yes.
I say "Declare Blocls; I'm going to block the freebooter with my Stormbreath Dragon.
He then points to my stormbreath and said "He dies" and then immediately I argue and call over the judge. The judge says my opponent doesn't need to say anything about the exalted until it becomes relevant. I ask why it wasn't relevant when I asked if the Freebooter was a 1/2 and the judge said "What was his response" So I told him he said nothing so I reiterated it was a 1/2 and asked to move to blockers. The judge said I needed to specifically ask him and use the specific words "What is his power and toughness" in which I was trying to argue that's exactly what I did twice when asking if it was a 1/2.
I don't understand the point in missed triggers at competitive REL. I remember seeing someone lose in a pro-tour or Grand Prix because they didn't get their exalted trigger even though they pointed at the exalted but didn't vocalize it. My opponent neither pointed, vocalized, and did some BS communication to get away with keeping his triggers without any obvious use of his board state.
I'm obviously still salty, but can someone explain to me WHY exalted triggers can work this way. Is there any way to NOT miss exalted triggers?
Piggybacking on this thread:
Is the question "Is it [power & toughness]?" not the same as "What is its power & toughness?" ? Can someone confirm that?
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You do not need to recognize triggers until they have an effect on the board state. The point where exalted triggers do that is during the combat damage step. It is not your opponents job to help you make an optimal play.
you asked how big it was and got no response. You then asked to move to blockers and received an affirmative. A better way to handle this would be to call a judge when the opponent refuses to respond to your question of how large are his creatures. If this is a habit it can be considered unsportsman like behavior.
It seems odd to be salty about trying to trick a player out of a trigger and failing to get them.
In any other "trigger" interaction, SOME sort of acknowledgement of the triggers SHOULD happen before change of phase/conversation about the creature in question
EDIT (Aug. 27, 2020): Correctness edit.
If we're arguing semantics, I clearly made 2 statements which he nodded to. Why is everyone stating "he only nodded to move to blockers" If we're playing the semantics game and not a magic game, I clearly won that one. Why is everyone saying the nod clearly wasnt confirming 1/2 without exalted triggers?
Im not salty about "trying to trick a player out of triggers" because it was a competitive REL event, and from my past experiences, if you miss your triggers, well... you miss your triggers. It's your fault. This is my first experience where triggered abilities don't work the same as they usually do (where apparently you don't need to acknowledge any triggers whatsoever and it's fine... until 2 phases later, that is.)
So I'm asking in declare attackers about P/T (me trying to acknowledge there should be announced triggers and there weren't), then I'm confirming AGAIN before changing phases. I was trying to be SPORTSMANLIKE - not whatever you are claiming.
sounds like you just said it's a 1/2, and asked to assign blockers. Your opponent doesn't have to correct you when you say something incorrect to yourself. If your opponent interpreted it as such, it's miscommunication, and how to handle it is up to the judge. (It seems both of you were aware of the trigger all the way, so I would rewind the situation.)
That said, the judge's words are indeed weird. Nothing in the rules indicates answering to "What are its P/T?" and nodding to "Is it a 1/2?" are different from judging perspective. If you clearly asked if it was a 1/2 when moving to the next step, then the trigger was missed.