I was play a multiplayer FFA EDH game on Saturday and something happened that cause quite a ruckus.
I was play with the pimped version of the 2017 Edgar Markov EDH deck. I had Sangromancer on the battlefield.
I attacked with 9 other vampires for lethal damage. My opponent had 4 1/1 soldier tokens that he chump blocked with, effectively negating lethal damage. However, before creature damage was dealt, I burned him for 3 life points, effectively rendering his blocks useless, and killing him.
Here is the rub. He believes that at the point the damage is dealt, he is at "0" life and he dies. His creatures don't "die" but are simply "not there anymore", hence I don't get to gain a much needed 12 life.
I think that he and his creatures die at the same time, and I get to drink the sweet nectar of life that is 12 life points.
If you brought your opponent to 0 life or less before combat damage is assigned, and assuming that you and your opponent are not the only players in the game:
In this case, your opponent will lose the game, and therefore leave the game (C.R. 704.5a, 117.5, 104.5). When a player leaves the game, all objects owned by that player also leave (C.R. 800.4a). If your opponent owned those tokens, they will leave the game without going to the graveyard, so they won't "die" for the purposes of Sangromancer's second ability (C.R. 700.4).
If, however, you let combat damage be assigned without causing damage to your opponent beforehand, and assuming that you and your opponent are not the only players in the game:
After combat damage is dealt, creatures with lethal damage, including the tokens in your question, are destroyed (C.R. 510.2, 510.3, 117.5, 704.5f). At the same time, players with 0 or less life lose the game (C.R. 704.5a, 704.3). Since the four tokens you referred to died and they were controlled by an opponent (of yours) at that moment, Sangromancer's second ability will trigger once for each such token (likewise at the same time) (C.R. 111.6, 701.7a, 700.4, 603.2, 603.2c, 603.6c, 603.10a, 603.10) — and it will do so even though that player also loses the game, and therefore leaves the game together with any objects he or she owns (including the tokens in question assuming that player owns them), at the same time (C.R. 104.5, 800.4a).
EDIT: Add one rule citation after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT (Aug. 16): Add more rule citations.
EDIT (Mar. 8): Add assumptions.
EDIT (Apr. 20): Add rule citation.
EDIT (Nov. 11, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
The State-Based Action that would destroy the lethally-damaged creatures is executed at the same time as the State-Based Action that makes the player at 0 or less life lose the game. Damage immediately causes loss of life, and immediately marks damage on the creatures.
Assuming your opponent doesn't concede owing to some gentleman's agreement or rule of sport, you are correct that the event of the creatures *being destroyed* happens at the same time. But the fate of those permanents depends on how 'fast' the player leaves the game as a result of losing. Do they actually die - get into the graveyard?
CR 104.5. If a player loses the game, that player leaves the game. If the game is a draw for a player, that player leaves the game. The multiplayer rules handle what happens when a player leaves the game; see rule 800.4.
CR 800.4a When a player leaves the game, all objects ([as defined by] rule 109) owned by that player leave the game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time they left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.
The player leaves the game; "As soon as" that occurs, the creature cards leave the game. Unfortunately, a mere "if, then" in CR 104.5 is not a clear indication, in English, of timing.
We can also keep in mind the definition of destroy:
CR 701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner’s graveyard.
The player definitely doesn't leave until they lose, and we already proved that if the player has lost, the creatures have been destroyed - same timing. From this, I would be confident saying the creatures definitely moved into the graveyard. You could not otherwise have accurately said that you "applied all State-Based Actions as a single event" to make the player lose. Then they leave the game.
Your Vampire triggers.
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Then the creatures are destroyed and the player loses. From the fact he loses, we know he leaves the game. From the fact the creatures are destroyed, we know they are put into the graveyard. From the fact he leaves the game, we know all objects he owns leave the game with him.
Deduction has a nice property where the addition of any fact doesn't make something already known, invalid. The cards are put into the graveyard. <-- That triggers the Vampire.
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I think I got it. Here is how it went down, for more clarification...
I have 9 creatures totaling 20 damage.
He has 19 life. He blocks 4, which, if it was a simple attack and block scenario, leaves him with 2 life.
Realizing this (and planning on him blocking), after he assigns blockers I cast lightning bolt, targeting him, bringing him to 16 life.
My 5 unblocked creatures deal 17 damage, bringing his life to -1, killing him AFTER combat damage is dealt.
As stated above, combat damage is all dealt at the same time except for first strike, and the state-based actions that cause creatures to die to damage and players to lose happen simultaneously as well, so nothing really happens "first" here unless you would have decided to withhold your burn spell until after combat. Ultimately, it's up to your opponent in this scenario. If he lets you gain the life, you do so, but if your opponent bows out immediately after realizing lethal damage, then he can deny you your lifegain.
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Good evening!
I was play a multiplayer FFA EDH game on Saturday and something happened that cause quite a ruckus.
I was play with the pimped version of the 2017 Edgar Markov EDH deck. I had Sangromancer on the battlefield.
I attacked with 9 other vampires for lethal damage. My opponent had 4 1/1 soldier tokens that he chump blocked with, effectively negating lethal damage. However, before creature damage was dealt, I burned him for 3 life points, effectively rendering his blocks useless, and killing him.
Here is the rub. He believes that at the point the damage is dealt, he is at "0" life and he dies. His creatures don't "die" but are simply "not there anymore", hence I don't get to gain a much needed 12 life.
I think that he and his creatures die at the same time, and I get to drink the sweet nectar of life that is 12 life points.
Who is right?
Thanks in advance for any and ALL responses.
In this case, your opponent will lose the game, and therefore leave the game (C.R. 704.5a, 117.5, 104.5). When a player leaves the game, all objects owned by that player also leave (C.R. 800.4a). If your opponent owned those tokens, they will leave the game without going to the graveyard, so they won't "die" for the purposes of Sangromancer's second ability (C.R. 700.4).
If, however, you let combat damage be assigned without causing damage to your opponent beforehand, and assuming that you and your opponent are not the only players in the game:
After combat damage is dealt, creatures with lethal damage, including the tokens in your question, are destroyed (C.R. 510.2, 510.3, 117.5, 704.5f). At the same time, players with 0 or less life lose the game (C.R. 704.5a, 704.3). Since the four tokens you referred to died and they were controlled by an opponent (of yours) at that moment, Sangromancer's second ability will trigger once for each such token (likewise at the same time) (C.R. 111.6, 701.7a, 700.4, 603.2, 603.2c, 603.6c, 603.10a, 603.10) — and it will do so even though that player also loses the game, and therefore leaves the game together with any objects he or she owns (including the tokens in question assuming that player owns them), at the same time (C.R. 104.5, 800.4a).
EDIT: Add one rule citation after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT (Aug. 16): Add more rule citations.
EDIT (Mar. 8): Add assumptions.
EDIT (Apr. 20): Add rule citation.
EDIT (Nov. 11, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
Assuming your opponent doesn't concede owing to some gentleman's agreement or rule of sport, you are correct that the event of the creatures *being destroyed* happens at the same time. But the fate of those permanents depends on how 'fast' the player leaves the game as a result of losing. Do they actually die - get into the graveyard?
The player leaves the game; "As soon as" that occurs, the creature cards leave the game. Unfortunately, a mere "if, then" in CR 104.5 is not a clear indication, in English, of timing.
We can also keep in mind the definition of destroy:
The player definitely doesn't leave until they lose, and we already proved that if the player has lost, the creatures have been destroyed - same timing. From this, I would be confident saying the creatures definitely moved into the graveyard. You could not otherwise have accurately said that you "applied all State-Based Actions as a single event" to make the player lose. Then they leave the game.
Your Vampire triggers.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I have 9 creatures totaling 20 damage.
He has 19 life. He blocks 4, which, if it was a simple attack and block scenario, leaves him with 2 life.
Realizing this (and planning on him blocking), after he assigns blockers I cast lightning bolt, targeting him, bringing him to 16 life.
My 5 unblocked creatures deal 17 damage, bringing his life to -1, killing him AFTER combat damage is dealt.
Deduction has a nice property where the addition of any fact doesn't make something already known, invalid. The cards are put into the graveyard. <-- That triggers the Vampire.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
As stated above, combat damage is all dealt at the same time except for first strike, and the state-based actions that cause creatures to die to damage and players to lose happen simultaneously as well, so nothing really happens "first" here unless you would have decided to withhold your burn spell until after combat. Ultimately, it's up to your opponent in this scenario. If he lets you gain the life, you do so, but if your opponent bows out immediately after realizing lethal damage, then he can deny you your lifegain.