What happens if Phantasmal Image copies an already crewed vehicle like Smuggler's Copter? Will it stay a 3/3 Flying Looter without having to be crewed? Or does it have to be crewed like a normal Copter? Can it even be crewed?
Generally, in this scenario, Phantasmal Image will enter as a copy of a noncreature, nontribal Vehicle, regardless of whether that Vehicle is currently a creature (copying an object passes on that object's copiable values, which, however, don't include most effects other than copy effects, such as the effect of the crew ability [C.R. 707.2, 702.122a]), and with "When this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it" (C.R. 707.9a). (Phantasmal Image won't be an Illusion since it won't enter as a creature or a tribal [C.R. 205.3d, 205.3m]; note also that the phrase "this creature" on that ability refers to Phantasmal-Image-turned-Smuggler's-Copter, even if that permanent isn't a creature [C.R. 700.7].) Notably, Phantasmal Image will thereby gain the crew ability, but not be a creature for purposes of that ability (C.R. 702.122a).
EDIT (Sep. 26): Correct rule citation.
EDIT (Oct. 4, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Guilds of Ravnica.
EDIT (Oct. 6, 2018; Feb. 4, 2019): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Jul. 28, 2019): Clarification.
EDIT (May 30, 2022): Edited, including to update some rule numberings.
If I understand correctly, Phantasmal Image will be an uncrewed and non-creature Smuggler's Copter, that can still be crewed to become a creature, but that will never have the Illusion type (even when it becomes a creature as part of the Crew ability), and that is still sacrificed whenever it is targeted. Right?
Does that mean that Phantasmal Image can copy Gideon, Ally of Zendikar while he's a creature, but when you do, Image is a non-creature / non-illusion Planeswalker with the 3 loyalty abilities that still enters the battlefield with 4 loyalty counters but that has to be sacrificed when targeted? Or is this case would be different than the Copter's case?
How about if Image copies a flipped Kytheon while he's a creature (through loyalty ability activation)?
If I understand correctly, Phantasmal Image will be an uncrewed and non-creature Smuggler's Copter, that can still be crewed to become a creature, but that will never have the Illusion type (even when it becomes a creature as part of the Crew ability), and that is still sacrificed whenever it is targeted. Right?
Correct.
Does that mean that Phantasmal Image can copy Gideon, Ally of Zendikar while he's a creature, but when you do, Image is a non-creature / non-illusion Planeswalker with the 3 loyalty abilities that still enters the battlefield with 4 loyalty counters but that has to be sacrificed when targeted? Or is this case would be different than the Copter's case?
You got this right. It's the same.
How about if Image copies a flipped Kytheon while he's a creature (through loyalty ability activation)?
If the back side of a DFC is up, those are the printed values, and you copy that side. Again, it's the same as the other two scenarios.
If I understand correctly, Phantasmal Image will be an uncrewed and non-creature Smuggler's Copter, ... that will never have the Illusion type (even when it becomes a creature as part of the Crew ability).... Right?
This case is similar to the case discussed in this thread and this thread. There, it involves a non-copy effect saying a permanent is a "Vampire" (or another creature type) in addition to its other types while that permanent is somehow a noncreature, nontribal permanent (examples include Olivia Voldaren and Dread Slaver; C.R. 205.3m). In this case, in accordance with a NetRep's ruling from 2013 or earlier, the effect won't make the new permanent be a Vampire (or the other creature type), even if it becomes a creature later due to another effect of the form "[this permanent] becomes a ... creature", such as crew (C.R. 702.122a), because even though both effects are in layer 4 (C.R. 613.1d), the effects are applied in timestamp order as no dependency within the meaning of C.R. 613.8a exists between them (C.R. 613.8, 613.7).
In scenarios like that in comment 1, however, a creature card enters the battlefield as a copy of a creature, except it's an "Illusion" (or another creature type) in addition to its other types, but enters the battlefield as a noncreature, nontribal permanent, so won't have the creature type in question as it does so (C.R. 205.3d, 205.3m) (examples include Phantasmal Image and Sakashima's Student). What is unclear according to the current rules is whether the modification to the copy effect granting a creature type (C.R. 707.9a) simply fails here and the copiable values won't include the Illusion (or other) creature type. (See also this thread.) Note that the copy effect and the crew effect are in layer 1 and layer 4, respectively (C.R. 702.122a, 613.1a, 613.1d), so dependency and timestamps are irrelevant here and the latter effect is layered on top of the former (C.R. 613.1, 613.7, 613.8, 613.8a); as a result, the resulting permanent won't have the Illusion (or other) creature type due to the copy effect, even if it becomes a creature due to crew (C.R. 613.1, 205.3d, 205.3m, 702.122a).
I just want to emphasize explicitly, that the Phantasmal Image Copter is not an Illusion because "An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types." (205.3d, emphasis added)
There are two interactions between subtypes and the absence of the containing card type. If a card type is lost, the subtypes go into hiding, like a recessive gene, and return if the card type comes back. (CR 205.1a) But if a subtype would be gained, it can't be, if the card type is not there. This of course is expressed through the layers system, but notably it does not constitute a change to subtype effects per se, so it doesn't interact with dependency - this rule doesn't cause a subtype effect to be dependent on a card-type-changing one. (Of course it doesn't, because if it did then this rule would never truly do anything.)
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Does that mean that Phantasmal Image can copy Gideon, Ally of Zendikar while he's a creature, but when you do, Image is a non-creature / non-illusion Planeswalker with the 3 loyalty abilities that still enters the battlefield with 4 loyalty counters but that has to be sacrificed when targeted? Or is this case would be different than the Copter's case?
In this scenario, in general, if you choose Gideon this way, Phantasmal Image will acquire Gideon's copiable values (C.R. 707.2) as it enters, so that Phantasmal Image will enter the battlefield—
as a copy of a noncreature, nontribal planeswalker (regardless of whether Gideon is also a creature due to his first ability) (C.R. 707.2),
with as many loyalty counters on Phantasmal Image as its "printed loyalty number" (which is 4 for Gideon, Ally of Zendikar) and not necessarily with the counters that Gideon already has (C.R. 306.5b, 707.2; for interaction of these effects, see C.R. 616.1, 614.1c-d, 614.12),
without necessarily being a creature, being 5/5, or having indestructible since most effects, other than copy effects, aren't copied by a copy effect (C.R. 707.2) (the effects of Gideon's first ability apply in layers 4, 6, and 7 [C.R. 613.1d, 613.1f-g], rather than layer 1, which Phantasmal Image's copy effect applies in [C.R. 613.1a], and even if such effects could be copied, Phantasmal Image won't be 5/5 since it won't be a creature [C.R. 208.3]),
without necessarily being an Illusion since it won't be a creature or a tribal (C.R. 205.3m, 205.3d),
with Gideon's loyalty abilities since those are part of Gideon's copiable values (C.R. 707.2), and
with the ability "When this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it" (C.R. 707.9a).
See also this thread and this thread. Note also that if Phantasmal Image enters the battlefield as a copy of Gideon and as a result you control two legendary permanents named Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (C.R. 108.1), you must have all but one of them go to the graveyard the next time a player would get priority (C.R. 117.5, 704.5j).
How about if Image copies a flipped Kytheon while he's a creature (through loyalty ability activation)?
If Phantasmal Image enters as a copy of Kytheon, Hero of Akros or a copy of Gideon, Battle-Forged (the transformed version of Kytheon), Phantasmal Image will generally, among other things, have the copiable values of that face, not those of the other face (C.R. 712.4a-b, 707.2; see also the examples in C.R. 712.5.) (Note also that a permanent not represented by a double-faced card can't transform [C.R. 712.5].) Again, if as a result you control two or more legendary permanents with the same name (such as Gideon, Battle-Forged or Kytheon, Hero of Akros), you must have all but one of them go to the graveyard the next time a player would get priority (C.R. 117.5, 704.5j).
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EDIT (Sep. 26): Correct rule citation.
EDIT (Oct. 4, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Guilds of Ravnica.
EDIT (Oct. 6, 2018; Feb. 4, 2019): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Jul. 28, 2019): Clarification.
EDIT (May 30, 2022): Edited, including to update some rule numberings.
Does that mean that Phantasmal Image can copy Gideon, Ally of Zendikar while he's a creature, but when you do, Image is a non-creature / non-illusion Planeswalker with the 3 loyalty abilities that still enters the battlefield with 4 loyalty counters but that has to be sacrificed when targeted? Or is this case would be different than the Copter's case?
How about if Image copies a flipped Kytheon while he's a creature (through loyalty ability activation)?
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Correct.
You got this right. It's the same.
If the back side of a DFC is up, those are the printed values, and you copy that side. Again, it's the same as the other two scenarios.
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This case is similar to the case discussed in this thread and this thread. There, it involves a non-copy effect saying a permanent is a "Vampire" (or another creature type) in addition to its other types while that permanent is somehow a noncreature, nontribal permanent (examples include Olivia Voldaren and Dread Slaver; C.R. 205.3m). In this case, in accordance with a NetRep's ruling from 2013 or earlier, the effect won't make the new permanent be a Vampire (or the other creature type), even if it becomes a creature later due to another effect of the form "[this permanent] becomes a ... creature", such as crew (C.R. 702.122a), because even though both effects are in layer 4 (C.R. 613.1d), the effects are applied in timestamp order as no dependency within the meaning of C.R. 613.8a exists between them (C.R. 613.8, 613.7).
In scenarios like that in comment 1, however, a creature card enters the battlefield as a copy of a creature, except it's an "Illusion" (or another creature type) in addition to its other types, but enters the battlefield as a noncreature, nontribal permanent, so won't have the creature type in question as it does so (C.R. 205.3d, 205.3m) (examples include Phantasmal Image and Sakashima's Student). What is unclear according to the current rules is whether the modification to the copy effect granting a creature type (C.R. 707.9a) simply fails here and the copiable values won't include the Illusion (or other) creature type. (See also this thread.) Note that the copy effect and the crew effect are in layer 1 and layer 4, respectively (C.R. 702.122a, 613.1a, 613.1d), so dependency and timestamps are irrelevant here and the latter effect is layered on top of the former (C.R. 613.1, 613.7, 613.8, 613.8a); as a result, the resulting permanent won't have the Illusion (or other) creature type due to the copy effect, even if it becomes a creature due to crew (C.R. 613.1, 205.3d, 205.3m, 702.122a).
EDIT (Oct. 6): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Jan. 29; Jan. 30): Clarification and correctness edit.
EDIT (Mar. 17): Add rule citation.
EDIT (May 30, 2022): Update rule numberings.
There are two interactions between subtypes and the absence of the containing card type. If a card type is lost, the subtypes go into hiding, like a recessive gene, and return if the card type comes back. (CR 205.1a) But if a subtype would be gained, it can't be, if the card type is not there. This of course is expressed through the layers system, but notably it does not constitute a change to subtype effects per se, so it doesn't interact with dependency - this rule doesn't cause a subtype effect to be dependent on a card-type-changing one. (Of course it doesn't, because if it did then this rule would never truly do anything.)
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EDIT (Jul. 26): Correction.
EDIT (Nov. 1; Nov. 6): Edited.
EDIT (May 5, 2019): Edited.
EDIT (May 30, 2022): Update rule numberings.
If Phantasmal Image enters as a copy of Kytheon, Hero of Akros or a copy of Gideon, Battle-Forged (the transformed version of Kytheon), Phantasmal Image will generally, among other things, have the copiable values of that face, not those of the other face (C.R. 712.4a-b, 707.2; see also the examples in C.R. 712.5.) (Note also that a permanent not represented by a double-faced card can't transform [C.R. 712.5].) Again, if as a result you control two or more legendary permanents with the same name (such as Gideon, Battle-Forged or Kytheon, Hero of Akros), you must have all but one of them go to the graveyard the next time a player would get priority (C.R. 117.5, 704.5j).
EDIT (Oct. 6): Correctness edit; add rule citation.
EDIT (May 30, 2022): Update rule numberings.