First question seems like something I should know, but I'm a bit fuzzy on. If Toothy, Imaginary Friend leaves play while you have a Vedalken Orrery or Leyline of Anticipation, can you respond to the draw trigger by recasting him? Ex: if he got bounced or returned to the command zone, would he already be there to cast again, or would the draw effect need to resolve first?
But I went to gatherer looking for an answer to that, and two rulings there seem to contradict my understanding, so I'm hoping someone can explain.
First: "If you draw multiple cards, Toothy’s middle ability triggers that many times. If your team also controls Pir, Imaginative Rascal each of those resolving triggered abilities puts two +1/+1 counters on Toothy."
-This seems wrong, if you draw multiple cards off one trigger, wouldn't Pir only trigger once and add one extra, not one extra per card drawn?
Second: "If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Toothy at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many cards you draw. For example, if there are two +1/+1 counters on Toothy and it gets three -1/-1 counters, you’ll draw two cards."
-My understanding is that -1/-1 counters first negate +1/+1 counters. So if Toothy had two +1/+1 counters and then got three -1/-1 counters I thought the proper way to handle that would be remove the two counters, then the third one causes him to die with no counters.
Oh, wait, I get the second one. Toothy doesn't trigger when a spell causes you to draw cards, he tiggers when you draw a card. So each card drawn is a separate trigger, regardless of what caused the draw.
First question seems like something I should know, but I'm a bit fuzzy on. If Toothy leaves play while you have an Orrey or Leyline of Anticipation, can you respond to the draw trigger by recasting him? Ex: if he got bounced or returned to the command zone, would he already be there to cast again, or would the draw effect need to resolve first?
If the draw trigger(s) haven't resolved and Toothy gets bounced, then those draw triggers will still be on stack once the bounce effect has resolved. With Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrery, you could then play Toothy prior to those triggers resolving and reap the benefits.
But I went to gatherer looking for an answer to that, and two rulings there seem to contradict my understanding, so I'm hoping someone can explain.
First: "If you draw multiple cards, Toothy’s middle ability triggers that many times. If your team also controls Pir, each of those resolving triggered abilities puts two +1/+1 counters on Toothy."
-This seems wrong, if you draw multiple cards off one trigger, wouldn't Pir only trigger once and add one extra, not one extra per card drawn?
The ruling is correct. Toothy triggers any time you draw a card and once for each card drawn, so if you cast Treasure Cruise you would get three Toothy triggers and hence three +1/+1 counters. If Pir is in play, it would make each of those triggers put two counters on Toothy instead of one so it would end up with six counter in this instance.
Second: "If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Toothy at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many cards you draw. For example, if there are two +1/+1 counters on Toothy and it gets three -1/-1 counters, you’ll draw two cards."
-My understanding is that -1/-1 counters first negate +1/+1 counters. So if Toothy had two +1/+1 counters and then got three -1/-1 counters I thought the proper way to handle that would be remove the two counters, then the third one causes him to die with no counters.
The +1/+1 counters are still placed on Toothy, they just don't stay there for very long if there are -1/-1 counters already on him. They "annihilate" one another as a state-based effect the same as when a creature dies from having toughness less than one. At that point, the ruling is just clarifying that one sate-based effect (dying from toughness less than one) happens before the other (+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters negating one another).
Since you can cast spells as though they had flash, yes, you can respond to the trigger by casting Toothy again. Toothy has already left the battlefield, that's why the trigger went off in the first place. You don't get a trigger for what may happen later, only for what actually happens.
Pir's ability is not a triggered ability, but a static one, that creates a replacement effect. Multiple card are drawn one at a time, one after the other, not simultaneously. So for example "Draw 3 cards." would be treated as "Draw a card. Draw a card. Draw a card." Thus you get multiple triggers from Toothy, because the trigger condition is "Whenever you draw A card ..." This is fulfilled multiple times, so you get multiple triggers.
All state based actions happen simultanously as a single event. Meaning Toothy leaves the battlefield at the same time the counters annihilate each other. Leaves-the-battlefield triggers are treated specially, though, as in that they look at the game state right before the event rather than after as usual. And right before that simultaneous event of multiple state based actions happened, Toothy was on the field with +1/+1 counters (and also -1/-1 counters). Since Toothy is no longer on the field when the trigger resolves, the game uses its last known information, which is that it had those counters (all of them).
First question seems like something I should know, but I'm a bit fuzzy on. If Toothy leaves play while you have an Orrey or Leyline of Anticipation, can you respond to the draw trigger by recasting him? Ex: if he got bounced or returned to the command zone, would he already be there to cast again, or would the draw effect need to resolve first?
Yes, this works. The leaves the battlefield trigger will be on the stack, you can respond to that trigger by casting Toothy, then resolve Toothy and the trigger, which will trigger the +1/+1 counter granting ability.
Second: "If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Toothy at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many cards you draw. For example, if there are two +1/+1 counters on Toothy and it gets three -1/-1 counters, you’ll draw two cards."
-My understanding is that -1/-1 counters first negate +1/+1 counters. So if Toothy had two +1/+1 counters and then got three -1/-1 counters I thought the proper way to handle that would be remove the two counters, then the third one causes him to die with no counters.
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters negate each other as part of state-based actions. Creatures go to the graveyard as part of state-based actions, as well. See the following rule:
704.7 If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Sorry, my initial question wasn't clear. I mean the draw trigger from Toothy leaving play. So Toothy gets Swordsed or some such when he has 2 +1/+1 counters. Toothy goes to your command zone, draw 2 goes on the stack. Can you respond to the draw 2 from Toothy leaving by playing Toothy, thus getting his counters right back?
Edit: Never mind, looks like that got answered while I was typing. Thanks all.
Also, thanks for the explanations. I didn't realize counters negating each other was a state based effect, I had thought the negating counters were never placed.
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But I went to gatherer looking for an answer to that, and two rulings there seem to contradict my understanding, so I'm hoping someone can explain.
First: "If you draw multiple cards, Toothy’s middle ability triggers that many times. If your team also controls Pir, Imaginative Rascal each of those resolving triggered abilities puts two +1/+1 counters on Toothy."
-This seems wrong, if you draw multiple cards off one trigger, wouldn't Pir only trigger once and add one extra, not one extra per card drawn?
Second: "If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Toothy at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many cards you draw. For example, if there are two +1/+1 counters on Toothy and it gets three -1/-1 counters, you’ll draw two cards."
-My understanding is that -1/-1 counters first negate +1/+1 counters. So if Toothy had two +1/+1 counters and then got three -1/-1 counters I thought the proper way to handle that would be remove the two counters, then the third one causes him to die with no counters.
If the draw trigger(s) haven't resolved and Toothy gets bounced, then those draw triggers will still be on stack once the bounce effect has resolved. With Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrery, you could then play Toothy prior to those triggers resolving and reap the benefits.
The ruling is correct. Toothy triggers any time you draw a card and once for each card drawn, so if you cast Treasure Cruise you would get three Toothy triggers and hence three +1/+1 counters. If Pir is in play, it would make each of those triggers put two counters on Toothy instead of one so it would end up with six counter in this instance.
The +1/+1 counters are still placed on Toothy, they just don't stay there for very long if there are -1/-1 counters already on him. They "annihilate" one another as a state-based effect the same as when a creature dies from having toughness less than one. At that point, the ruling is just clarifying that one sate-based effect (dying from toughness less than one) happens before the other (+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters negating one another).
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Since you can cast spells as though they had flash, yes, you can respond to the trigger by casting Toothy again. Toothy has already left the battlefield, that's why the trigger went off in the first place. You don't get a trigger for what may happen later, only for what actually happens.
Pir's ability is not a triggered ability, but a static one, that creates a replacement effect. Multiple card are drawn one at a time, one after the other, not simultaneously. So for example "Draw 3 cards." would be treated as "Draw a card. Draw a card. Draw a card." Thus you get multiple triggers from Toothy, because the trigger condition is "Whenever you draw A card ..." This is fulfilled multiple times, so you get multiple triggers.
All state based actions happen simultanously as a single event. Meaning Toothy leaves the battlefield at the same time the counters annihilate each other. Leaves-the-battlefield triggers are treated specially, though, as in that they look at the game state right before the event rather than after as usual. And right before that simultaneous event of multiple state based actions happened, Toothy was on the field with +1/+1 counters (and also -1/-1 counters). Since Toothy is no longer on the field when the trigger resolves, the game uses its last known information, which is that it had those counters (all of them).
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Vedalken Orrery
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Pir, Imaginative Rascal
Yes, this works. The leaves the battlefield trigger will be on the stack, you can respond to that trigger by casting Toothy, then resolve Toothy and the trigger, which will trigger the +1/+1 counter granting ability.
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters negate each other as part of state-based actions. Creatures go to the graveyard as part of state-based actions, as well. See the following rule:
[180 classic cube]
Edit: Never mind, looks like that got answered while I was typing. Thanks all.
Also, thanks for the explanations. I didn't realize counters negating each other was a state based effect, I had thought the negating counters were never placed.