I realized I never knew what would happen in this situation. I like to cast these spells, what options do I have?
Mind Bend has gatherer rulings that say that color words do not have to be present on the target. It is mum, however, on whether Mind Bend still takes effect if you cast it that way.
What happens if I Mind Bend a White Knight to change all instances of blue to green, and then on a later turn Mind Bend it to change all instances of black to blue? Couldn't I say that the first Mind Bend's effect is dependent on the second, since what it does to White Knight is changed by the second one?
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Nothing in the rules about text-changing effects says that you have to choose a color word that's actually in the text of the card to change. So you can change all instances of a word that isn't there. Despite it doing nothing at first, that continuous effect that you set is there. If the word you chose later starts being there, then the effect applies. Dependency would indeed apply here, this interaction qualifies.
613.7a. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.7b. An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Mind Bend's effect, and any other effect of the form "Change the text...", is not a one-shot effect (any more than the text-changing effect of Swirl the Mists is), but a continuous effect (C.R. 611.1, 613.1c; compare with C.R. 610.1). Like any continuous effect, it has a duration (compare C.R. 611.1, 611.2a, and 611.3b with C.R. 610.1). Similarly, effects of the form "Gain control..." are likewise not one-shot effects, but continuous effects (C.R. 611.1, 613.1f; compare with C.R. 610.1); they are created even if the player already controls the object in question.
Nothing in the rules about text-changing effects says that you have to choose a color word that's actually in the text of the card to change. So you can change all instances of a word that isn't there. Despite it doing nothing at first, that continuous effect that you set is there. If the word you chose later starts being there, then the effect applies. Dependency would indeed apply here, this interaction qualifies.
I have to disagree, there is no dependency. The effect from the first Mind Bend has already applied to the Knight, so it's not dependent on the second Mind Bend to apply.
This is similar to the interaction of Olivia Voldaren and Gideon Jura. If Olivia turns an animated Gideon into a vampire, then does nothing else that turn so Gideon stops being a creature. The next time Gideon is animated it won't be a vampire, even though Olivia's effect is still being applied. You would think that Olivia's effect would be dependent on Gideon being a creature, but because the effect was from a resolving spell or ability it will continue to apply even when Gideon is no longer a creature so it's not dependent on Gideon being a creature. So no dependency.
The example above is the same way, as I stated the first effect has already applied and will continue to do so regardless on whether another Mind Bend is cast. So timestamp is applied and the White Knight has protection from blue, not green.
This is similar to the interaction of Olivia Voldaren and Gideon Jura. If Olivia turns an animated Gideon into a vampire, then does nothing else that turn so Gideon stops being a creature. The next time Gideon is animated it won't be a vampire, even though Olivia's effect is still being applied. You would think that Olivia's effect would be dependent on Gideon being a creature, but because the effect was from a resolving spell or ability it will continue to apply even when Gideon is no longer a creature so it's not dependent on Gideon being a creature. So no dependency.
Your statement here is in accordance withhas similarities to a NetRep's ruling from 2013 or earlier (see this thread; see also this thread).
Moreover, two Mind Bend effects on the same object are not dependent on each other under C.R. 613.7a notably because applying one—
doesn't change the text of the other (because the text change applies to the targeted object, not to Mind Bend itself),
doesn't change the existence of the other,
doesn't change what the other applies to, and
doesn't change what the other does to the object it applies to (namely the other still "replac[es] all instances of one [chosen] color word with another or one [chosen] basic land type with another").
EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 7 was posted.
Olivia's effect continues to apply to Gideon because it has a permanent duration. However, what it can or can't do is limited by CR205.3d: "An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types." This is a clear example of an effect changing what an effect "does to any of the things it applies to". Is there some reference to Olivia and Gideon having the interaction you say?
It is valid for an effect to exist but be doing nothing. Changes of control caused by sorceries can result in this... I'm sure there's an even clearer example I"m forgetting.
So I don't understand your example, but on thinking further, and with Swirl the Mists, maybe there isn't dependency because what the Mind Bend does is not changed. All of a certain word are replaced with another word. Specifically nothing, when choosing blue->green for White Knight. Then Swirl the Mists comes down choosing blue. Swirl is definitely never dependent on anything, but what Mind Bend does is either [change an instance of blue to green in the text of an ability] or [change all/no instances of blue to green in the text of an ability].
That looks just tricky enough to demand additional philosophy. I'm fresh out.
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Mind Bend has gatherer rulings that say that color words do not have to be present on the target. It is mum, however, on whether Mind Bend still takes effect if you cast it that way.
What happens if I Mind Bend a White Knight to change all instances of blue to green, and then on a later turn Mind Bend it to change all instances of black to blue? Couldn't I say that the first Mind Bend's effect is dependent on the second, since what it does to White Knight is changed by the second one?
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I have to disagree, there is no dependency. The effect from the first Mind Bend has already applied to the Knight, so it's not dependent on the second Mind Bend to apply.
This is similar to the interaction of Olivia Voldaren and Gideon Jura. If Olivia turns an animated Gideon into a vampire, then does nothing else that turn so Gideon stops being a creature. The next time Gideon is animated it won't be a vampire, even though Olivia's effect is still being applied. You would think that Olivia's effect would be dependent on Gideon being a creature, but because the effect was from a resolving spell or ability it will continue to apply even when Gideon is no longer a creature so it's not dependent on Gideon being a creature. So no dependency.
The example above is the same way, as I stated the first effect has already applied and will continue to do so regardless on whether another Mind Bend is cast. So timestamp is applied and the White Knight has protection from blue, not green.
is in accordance withhas similarities to a NetRep's ruling from 2013 or earlier (see this thread; see also this thread).Moreover, two Mind Bend effects on the same object are not dependent on each other under C.R. 613.7a notably because applying one—
EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 7 was posted.
It is valid for an effect to exist but be doing nothing. Changes of control caused by sorceries can result in this... I'm sure there's an even clearer example I"m forgetting.
So I don't understand your example, but on thinking further, and with Swirl the Mists, maybe there isn't dependency because what the Mind Bend does is not changed. All of a certain word are replaced with another word. Specifically nothing, when choosing blue->green for White Knight. Then Swirl the Mists comes down choosing blue. Swirl is definitely never dependent on anything, but what Mind Bend does is either [change an instance of blue to green in the text of an ability] or [change all/no instances of blue to green in the text of an ability].
That looks just tricky enough to demand additional philosophy. I'm fresh out.
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