The token created with Helm of the Host will enter the battlefield unflipped regardless of whether Sasaya is flipped or not (since Helm of the Host doesn't state otherwise) (C.R. 111.3). When the token is flipped, it will have the characteristics of its flipped version (C.R. 710.2; see also the example in C.R. 111.4).
EDIT (Jul. 9, 2019): Some rules were renumbered with Core Set 2020.
EDIT (Nov. 11, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Oct. 22, 2022): Edited because one rule was renumbered in the meantime.
Note that normally, the token created with Helm of the Host will not be legendary. This affects at least the unflipped characteristics of the token (C.R. 710.2). What remains unclear according to the current rules is whether the flipped characteristics are affected as well; that is, whether the token will still not be legendary if the token is flipped. (Recall that under C.R. 707.2, an object's "'copiable values' are the values derived from the text printed on the object ... as modified by other copy effects" and by certain other things, and that under C.R. 707.9c, a copy effect that "modif[ies] a characteristic as part of the copying process", such as found in Helm of the Host, changes the "copiable values for the copy").
EDIT (Nov. 1): Corrected rule citation.
EDIT (Oct. 22, 2022): Edited to conform with Oracle text changes with Unfinity, and because some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
The puzzle highlighted by peter has caught my attention. Here's some research. It comes down to whether Helm of the Host, or any effect that says a copy "isn't [quality] if [the original] is [quality]", modifies the copying process for the "alternative versions of" the characteristics ("name, text box, type line, power, and toughness") acquired from a flip card.
I argue that 706.2 indicates Helm copies the values "derived from the text printed on the object", "that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty" characteristics of Sasaya, and its modification to the copying process also applies to the second type line it acquires. Sasaya is a card that has two or more of some of those characteristics, and that is the extent of a copy effect's interaction with a flip format card. I have a more sophisticated argument to justify this interpretation below:
The examples from CR110 and also CR706 indicate that the complete format of a flip card's rules text is copied, despite the provision of CR 709.2 to discount one or the other side of a flip card at a given time. The example with Dimir Doppelganger and Nezumi Shortfang is exhaustive on this. We must therefore say that a flip card's rules text in total - both halves of its 'format' - is part of its copiable values. Yet we also know that a copy of a flip card of course does not express the inappropriate half of its rules text. So copying an object slips under CR 709.2 to get the full card, and also having a copy (that is, an object with a copy continuous effect applying to it) is subject to the exclusion of the inappropriate "version" of its characteristics. Rule 709.2, in both ways, rests at a more encompassing level than the copying system, which is more basic.
If we calculate the characteristics of a permanent by referring to 709.2 when it applies, and 709.2 is calculated with respect to what copy effects are in play, and copy effects do not consider which version of flip characteristics to copy, then it is a one-way street of logic to conclude that CR 709.2 does not interact with the application of the rules defining how objects copy objects.
Ignoring 709.2, Sasaya is just a permanent with two type lines, and there can be derived no reason to have the copying treat one of those type lines differently from the other, under CR706.2.
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The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object...
No matter a cards current characteristics(709.2), the text printed on it is the same(excluding the obvious exception of face down status).
So just like Quicksilver Gargantuan will be a 7/7 if it copies a flip card and then flips. Copies made by Helm of The Host will be nonlegendary. Though it is important to distinguish that if you use the nonlegendaries that flip into legendaries,Nezumi Shortfang the flips will be legendary because the helm looks at the equipped creatures characteristics to determine if it kicks in its anti-legendary clause.
So just like Quicksilver Gargantuan will be a 7/7 if it copies a flip card and then flips. Copies made by Helm of The Host will be nonlegendary. Though it is important to distinguish that if you use the nonlegendaries that flip into legendaries,Nezumi Shortfang the flips will be legendary because the helm looks at the equipped creatures characteristics to determine if it kicks in its anti-legendary clause.
I had said the flips will be not legendary, because the helm looks at the equipped creature's text to determine if the copy effect doesn't copy the legendary characteristic. You're saying the effect is calculated as being a standard copy because the equipped creature is nonlegendary at that time - in other words, that it is legendary because the helm looks at the equipped creature's characteristics to determine if the copy effect doesn't copy the legendary characteristic.
That works if the text of Helm is read as a certain condition applied to figure out what effect to apply - either the standard copy or a modified one. I could also say that the instruction has the format of a modification, that the copy "isn't [quality] if [the original] is [quality]". In that case, the effect calculates with respect to the text being copied, not its characteristics.
I now like your interpretation, but it has the issue that it co-ordinates an "except" clause with an "if", which I don't think is too common. However, 706.9b on reread does seem to exclude treating that instruction as a modification/exception the way I proposed, since it should have "simply stat[ed] that certain characteristics are not copied," i.e., written "isn't legendary" period.
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Helm of the Host has a ruling: "4/27/2018 The token isn’t legendary, and this exception is copiable. If something else copies the token later, that copy also won’t be legendary. If you control two or more permanents with the same name but only one is legendary, the “legend rule” doesn’t apply."
Neither interpretation heretofore offered is correct. The nature of Helm's copy effect is one in which the copied information includes an exception. The layer 1 effect that results from it is such that, as it applies the characteristics to the token, that process cannot result in a legendary object - the effect doesn't apply the supertype legendary. This quality is copiable.
How that relates to the above confusion is that it indicates Helm's effect is not conditional.
Since the values derived directly from text come before even layer 1, a Helm-token of a flip card is not legendary whether flipped or unflipped. The original argument that the two type lines cannot be treated differently stands, and also accords with CR706.3
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Helm of the Host has a ruling: "4/27/2018 The token isn’t legendary, and this exception is copiable. If something else copies the token later, that copy also won’t be legendary. If you control two or more permanents with the same name but only one is legendary, the “legend rule” doesn’t apply."
Neither interpretation heretofore offered is correct. The nature of Helm's copy effect is one in which the copied information includes an exception. The layer 1 effect that results from it is such that, as it applies the characteristics to the token, that process cannot result in a legendary object - the effect doesn't apply the supertype legendary. This quality is copiable.
C.R. 707.9b says that "[t]he final value(s) for" a characteristic modified by certain copy effects, not the modifications themselves, "become part of the copiable values for the copy". When the ruling says that "this exception [to the usual copy effect] is copiable", it means only that if the token isn't legendary due to Helm of the Host's effect, the legendary supertype won't become part of the token's copiable values, so that if another object becomes a copy of that token, that object likewise won't be legendary thereby.
EDIT (May 25, 2019): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Oct. 22, 2022): Edited because one rule was renumbered in the meantime.
You're right. I read into the ruling too much. ... again.
The distinction for "final values" isn't too much served by the pedestrian example seen in 706.9c, Copy Artifact .
Anyway, the final answer is still that the two typelines are the same. Helm of the Host makes a token that excludes the legendary supertype. If that token has the flipped status, it still can't be legendary.
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EDIT (Jul. 9, 2019): Some rules were renumbered with Core Set 2020.
EDIT (Nov. 11, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Oct. 22, 2022): Edited because one rule was renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Nov. 1): Corrected rule citation.
EDIT (Oct. 22, 2022): Edited to conform with Oracle text changes with Unfinity, and because some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
I argue that 706.2 indicates Helm copies the values "derived from the text printed on the object", "that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty" characteristics of Sasaya, and its modification to the copying process also applies to the second type line it acquires. Sasaya is a card that has two or more of some of those characteristics, and that is the extent of a copy effect's interaction with a flip format card. I have a more sophisticated argument to justify this interpretation below:
The examples from CR110 and also CR706 indicate that the complete format of a flip card's rules text is copied, despite the provision of CR 709.2 to discount one or the other side of a flip card at a given time. The example with Dimir Doppelganger and Nezumi Shortfang is exhaustive on this. We must therefore say that a flip card's rules text in total - both halves of its 'format' - is part of its copiable values. Yet we also know that a copy of a flip card of course does not express the inappropriate half of its rules text. So copying an object slips under CR 709.2 to get the full card, and also having a copy (that is, an object with a copy continuous effect applying to it) is subject to the exclusion of the inappropriate "version" of its characteristics. Rule 709.2, in both ways, rests at a more encompassing level than the copying system, which is more basic.
If we calculate the characteristics of a permanent by referring to 709.2 when it applies, and 709.2 is calculated with respect to what copy effects are in play, and copy effects do not consider which version of flip characteristics to copy, then it is a one-way street of logic to conclude that CR 709.2 does not interact with the application of the rules defining how objects copy objects.
Ignoring 709.2, Sasaya is just a permanent with two type lines, and there can be derived no reason to have the copying treat one of those type lines differently from the other, under CR706.2.
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No matter a cards current characteristics(709.2), the text printed on it is the same(excluding the obvious exception of face down status).
So just like Quicksilver Gargantuan will be a 7/7 if it copies a flip card and then flips. Copies made by Helm of The Host will be nonlegendary. Though it is important to distinguish that if you use the nonlegendaries that flip into legendaries,Nezumi Shortfang the flips will be legendary because the helm looks at the equipped creatures characteristics to determine if it kicks in its anti-legendary clause.
Yes.
I had said the flips will be not legendary, because the helm looks at the equipped creature's text to determine if the copy effect doesn't copy the legendary characteristic. You're saying the effect is calculated as being a standard copy because the equipped creature is nonlegendary at that time - in other words, that it is legendary because the helm looks at the equipped creature's characteristics to determine if the copy effect doesn't copy the legendary characteristic.
That works if the text of Helm is read as a certain condition applied to figure out what effect to apply - either the standard copy or a modified one. I could also say that the instruction has the format of a modification, that the copy "isn't [quality] if [the original] is [quality]". In that case, the effect calculates with respect to the text being copied, not its characteristics.
I now like your interpretation, but it has the issue that it co-ordinates an "except" clause with an "if", which I don't think is too common. However, 706.9b on reread does seem to exclude treating that instruction as a modification/exception the way I proposed, since it should have "simply stat[ed] that certain characteristics are not copied," i.e., written "isn't legendary" period.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Neither interpretation heretofore offered is correct. The nature of Helm's copy effect is one in which the copied information includes an exception. The layer 1 effect that results from it is such that, as it applies the characteristics to the token, that process cannot result in a legendary object - the effect doesn't apply the supertype legendary. This quality is copiable.
How that relates to the above confusion is that it indicates Helm's effect is not conditional.
Since the values derived directly from text come before even layer 1, a Helm-token of a flip card is not legendary whether flipped or unflipped. The original argument that the two type lines cannot be treated differently stands, and also accords with CR706.3
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
EDIT (May 25, 2019): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Oct. 22, 2022): Edited because one rule was renumbered in the meantime.
The distinction for "final values" isn't too much served by the pedestrian example seen in 706.9c, Copy Artifact .
Anyway, the final answer is still that the two typelines are the same. Helm of the Host makes a token that excludes the legendary supertype. If that token has the flipped status, it still can't be legendary.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].