We had a discussion about the interaction of Exploration and Cloudstone Curio in our EDH group today. The more general idea of the question was whether the extra land drops from cards like Exploration - i.e. permanents that allow you to play additional lands - accumulate if you somehow return the permanent in question to your hand and get it onto the battlefield again.
I assume that when I play a Forest, it triggers Cloudstone Curio, as it is not an artifact, and since everything is an enchantment, I can bounce the Exploration. Can I then, after replaying Exploration using the Forest play another Forest, bounce Exploration again and repeat this ad nauseam (or for as long as I have lands in hand), or does the enchantment simply allow me to play two lands instead of one and checks how many I have already played independently of it being on the board?
I get that this is explained by rules 305.2a-b and I assume that what Exploration does is a continuous effect as per rule 613.10, but I just don't know how this works in practice.
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Exploration increases your land limit by 1 with its static ability, and it does so only for as long as that ability is active. As soon as the enchantment leaves the field, the effect ends, and your land limit drops again. So even if you replay the enchantment, it will only increase your land limit back to 2, and if you have already played a second land this turn, you cannot play another. To play a third land, you'd need a second Exploration or other such effect on the board at the same time, which would then increase your land limit to 3.
The more general idea of the question was whether the extra land drops from cards like Exploration - i.e. permanents that allow you to play additional lands - accumulate if you somehow return the permanent in question to your hand and get it onto the battlefield again.
This used to be the case once upon a time: when playing a land, you would pick which source you got that particular land drop from; if you used Exploration's extra land drop and then bounced and re-cast Exploration, it would be a new object giving you another extra land drop.
This has since been changed (with the release of Magic 2014). Now, whenever you try to play a land, you simply compare how many lands you've already played this turn to the amount of extra land drop effects you're currently benefiting from. If you have more land drops than you've already done so far, you can play the land. Otherwise, you can't.
Well, that's counterintuitive. Thanks for the answer. I guess the change made the game less broken, it just feels that it works in a different manner than everything else.
Well, that's counterintuitive. (...) it just feels that it works in a different manner than everything else.
I'm puzzled by your comment.
Let's say I have High Ground on the field; my creatures can block two instead of one.
If High Ground leaves and comes back, my creatures still can block only two, not three.
What is that 'everything else' you feel would work differently?
That's a good point, High Ground is a clear example. I just assumed cases like Exploration and Azusa would behave similarly to Muldrotha, to use a recent example.
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305.2. A player can normally play one land during his or her turn; however, continuous effects may increase this number.
305.2a To determine whether a player can play a land, compare the number of lands the player can play this turn with the number of lands he or she has already played this turn [...]. If the number of lands the player can play is greater, the play is legal.
611.2. A continuous effect may be generated by the resolution of a spell or ability.
611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as “until end of turn”). [...].
611.3. A continuous effect may be generated by the static ability of an object.
611.3b The effect applies at all times that the permanent generating it is on the battlefield [...].
Thanks! However, I still don't see the difference between Exploration's allowing you to play one extra land and Muldrotha's allowing you to play one of each permanent type from graveyard per turn explained in the rules. I mean, it says right there that continuous effect generated by a static ability is dependent on the permanent being on the battlefield and re-casting Exploration makes it a new object. (I am not arguing with anyone and I can see the augmenting/granting distinction, it's just that I can't see it in the rules. Maybe I just got hit over the head too many times.)
I get that I shouldn't be linking land drops with permanents granting them, but it's not stated explicitly anywhere. Am I still missing something?
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I get that I shouldn't be linking land drops with permanents granting them, but it's not stated explicitly anywhere. Am I still missing something?
Just 305.2a. "I played a second land while a different Exploration was under my control." "Okay, you played a second land, period. Your current limit is the normal one plus one for the Exploration you currently have. You're done."
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Thanks! However, I still don't see the difference between Exploration's allowing you to play one extra land and Muldrotha's allowing you to play one of each permanent type from graveyard per turn explained in the rules. I mean, it says right there that continuous effect generated by a static ability is dependent on the permanent being on the battlefield and re-casting Exploration makes it a new object. (I am not arguing with anyone and I can see the augmenting/granting distinction, it's just that I can't see it in the rules. Maybe I just got hit over the head too many times.)
I get that I shouldn't be linking land drops with permanents granting them, but it's not stated explicitly anywhere. Am I still missing something?
Think of it this way. Exploration is a static affect that gives you +1 to your normal number of land drops per turn while it is in play. So if you normal have 1 this boosts it to 2. If you have another exploration you get 3. If one is destroyed you have 2 again. If you replay that exploration with Muldrotha you go back up to 3. It is the same reason why if you have intangible virtue on the field and it gets destroyed then you replay it your creatures still only get the effect of the enchantment once.
The reason this is different from Muldrotha is that the rules specific say lands are different
305.2. A player can normally play one land during his or her turn; however, continuous effects may increase this number. #
305.2a To determine whether a player can play a land, compare the number of lands the player can play this turn with the number of lands he or she has already played this turn (including lands played as special actions and lands played during the resolution of spells and abilities). If the number of lands the player can play is greater, the play is legal. #
305.2b A player can’t play a land, for any reason, if the number of lands the player can play this turn is equal to or less than the number of lands he or she has already played this turn. Ignore any part of an effect that instructs a player to do so. #
I also want to make it clear that Muldrotha does not allow multiple land drops per turn. Her ability is still affected by the 1 land drop per turn rule.
Is the difficulty with accepting how the difference can exist? With how the effect is derived from the text? With getting the interpretation from the rules?
"you may... an additional... on each of your turns" quite clearly makes some quantitative permission incremented by one, in the context of each of your turns. Rule 305.2 absolutely echoes this.
Muldrotha has a template, also seen with As Foretold, of giving some ability to cast or play cards in an unusual way, as a static ability. Instead of being activated or triggered, but not being equal at all times either, they indicate you can play cards from an unusual place, or play cards by an alternative cost, with another restriction of only once each turn/each of your turns (and on some characteristic of that card). That measurement "one... each turn" is what is rare about Muldrotha.
Muldrotha's permission itself, on the other hand, is standard-fare for Magic effects, giving a permission to play a card in the sense of CR 601.3. That permission exists via an effect, and that effect has an identity - it's a distinct one from an effect of another Muldrotha. Unlike receiving some "additional" change to permissions stated by the rules, this effect unilaterally enables something. So in the case of playing a land, you will find you are still suffering from a one land drop restriction (CR305.2). But if you have the drops available, then using Muldrotha for a land, and then getting another Muldrotha, lets you play a land from your grave again.
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You might think Muldrotha's ability increases the "cast from graveyard" limit from 0 to 1, but it doesn't, because the word "additional" is nowhere to be found, and not having permission to play something is not the same as having permission to play zero things.
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For sake of simplicity, let's imagine a hypothetical board on which I have:
Exploration
Cloudstone Curio
Enchanted Evening
I assume that when I play a Forest, it triggers Cloudstone Curio, as it is not an artifact, and since everything is an enchantment, I can bounce the Exploration. Can I then, after replaying Exploration using the Forest play another Forest, bounce Exploration again and repeat this ad nauseam (or for as long as I have lands in hand), or does the enchantment simply allow me to play two lands instead of one and checks how many I have already played independently of it being on the board?
I get that this is explained by rules 305.2a-b and I assume that what Exploration does is a continuous effect as per rule 613.10, but I just don't know how this works in practice.
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modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
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This has since been changed (with the release of Magic 2014). Now, whenever you try to play a land, you simply compare how many lands you've already played this turn to the amount of extra land drop effects you're currently benefiting from. If you have more land drops than you've already done so far, you can play the land. Otherwise, you can't.
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No Derevi shenanigans for me then.
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
Let's say I have High Ground on the field; my creatures can block two instead of one.
If High Ground leaves and comes back, my creatures still can block only two, not three.
What is that 'everything else' you feel would work differently?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
Muldrotha, the Gravetide grants access to a new action.
They are not comparable effects.
A Dying Wish
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Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
305.2a To determine whether a player can play a land, compare the number of lands the player can play this turn with the number of lands he or she has already played this turn [...]. If the number of lands the player can play is greater, the play is legal.
611.2. A continuous effect may be generated by the resolution of a spell or ability.
611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as “until end of turn”). [...].
611.3. A continuous effect may be generated by the static ability of an object.
611.3b The effect applies at all times that the permanent generating it is on the battlefield [...].
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
I get that I shouldn't be linking land drops with permanents granting them, but it's not stated explicitly anywhere. Am I still missing something?
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
Think of it this way. Exploration is a static affect that gives you +1 to your normal number of land drops per turn while it is in play. So if you normal have 1 this boosts it to 2. If you have another exploration you get 3. If one is destroyed you have 2 again. If you replay that exploration with Muldrotha you go back up to 3. It is the same reason why if you have intangible virtue on the field and it gets destroyed then you replay it your creatures still only get the effect of the enchantment once.
The reason this is different from Muldrotha is that the rules specific say lands are different
305.2. A player can normally play one land during his or her turn; however, continuous effects may increase this number. #
305.2a To determine whether a player can play a land, compare the number of lands the player can play this turn with the number of lands he or she has already played this turn (including lands played as special actions and lands played during the resolution of spells and abilities). If the number of lands the player can play is greater, the play is legal. #
305.2b A player can’t play a land, for any reason, if the number of lands the player can play this turn is equal to or less than the number of lands he or she has already played this turn. Ignore any part of an effect that instructs a player to do so. #
I also want to make it clear that Muldrotha does not allow multiple land drops per turn. Her ability is still affected by the 1 land drop per turn rule.
Exploration's effect is like Trusted Advisor
Is the difficulty with accepting how the difference can exist? With how the effect is derived from the text? With getting the interpretation from the rules?
"you may... an additional... on each of your turns" quite clearly makes some quantitative permission incremented by one, in the context of each of your turns. Rule 305.2 absolutely echoes this.
Muldrotha has a template, also seen with As Foretold, of giving some ability to cast or play cards in an unusual way, as a static ability. Instead of being activated or triggered, but not being equal at all times either, they indicate you can play cards from an unusual place, or play cards by an alternative cost, with another restriction of only once each turn/each of your turns (and on some characteristic of that card). That measurement "one... each turn" is what is rare about Muldrotha.
Muldrotha's permission itself, on the other hand, is standard-fare for Magic effects, giving a permission to play a card in the sense of CR 601.3. That permission exists via an effect, and that effect has an identity - it's a distinct one from an effect of another Muldrotha. Unlike receiving some "additional" change to permissions stated by the rules, this effect unilaterally enables something. So in the case of playing a land, you will find you are still suffering from a one land drop restriction (CR305.2). But if you have the drops available, then using Muldrotha for a land, and then getting another Muldrotha, lets you play a land from your grave again.
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