I drafted M25 tonight and I got into a debait with my opponent about Pact of Negation. The wording on the card is weird and I would love some clarity. Thanks in advance.
Is the lose the game a "may" affect? or do you have to pay the cost?
I have always read it as.. "At the beginning of your next upkeep pay 3UU, if you can't you lose the game."
instead of "at the beginning of your next upkeep you MAY pay 3UU, if you don't you lose the game"
The text "...pay 3UU. If you don't, you lose the game." has the form "[Do something]. If [a player] [does, doesn't, or can't], [effect]"; the action "pay 3UU" is a cost (C.R. 117.12). Paying that cost is not optional (it doesn't use the word "may"); thus if you have 3UU, you must pay 3UU (compare Pact of Negation with Rohgahh of Kher Keep [C.R. 108.1]).
EDIT (Jun. 20): Edited to conform to rule changes in Dominaria; add rule citation.
You have to pay if you have the nessessary resources to do so, since the instruction is to pay 3UU, no way around that. However, the resource required is mana, which only exists in a player's mana pool. A player is not required to activate mana abilities to obtain the mana nessessary to pay the cost.
117.3c Activating mana abilities is not mandatory, even if paying a cost is.
Example: A player controls Lodestone Golem, which says “Nonartifact spells cost {1} more to cast.” Another player removes the last time counter from a suspended sorcery card. That player must cast that spell if able, but doing so costs {1}. The player is forced to pay that cost if enough mana is in his or her mana pool, but the player isn’t forced to activate a mana ability to produce that mana. If he or she doesn’t, the card simply remains exiled.
Though frankly, I don't see the point for arguing. You lose if you don't pay, wether paying is optional or not.
Okay I understand now. Thank you guys for clarifying. The full story for anyone who cares is..
He has 3 life to my 18. I have around 6 creatures out and he has 0. He casts Plague Wind so I use Pact of Negation. I put it sideways, face up on top of my deck to remember to pay the cost. He then looks at the Pact of Negation. Taking it off my deck, looking at it and putting it in my discard pile. All while I'm using Merfolk Looter at his end step. Forgetting about Pact of Negation (because its under my looted card without me realizing) I untap and attack him for lethal. He then states that I forgot to pay for Pact of Negation therefore i lose. That's when we got into the argument about whether you must pay it or it was optional. I clearly had enough mana and he was just looking for a cheeky win. I called judge and she said game loss =/
Generally speaking, a draft at an LGS will be run at Regular REL. And, at Regular, the trigger just goes onto the stack at the time it is noticed as being missed as long as it is not too disruptive to do so. So, in your case, you either get the trigger on the stack (with the option to pay) or it does not go onto the stack which means the game continues. I don't see why this would have been a game loss.
Also, while you cannot put cards on top of your library (so you should have put it into your graveyard right away) you are permitted to put a die or counter or something to remind yourself. In the future, feel free to use those.
Generally speaking, a draft at an LGS will be run at Regular REL. And, at Regular, the trigger just goes onto the stack at the time it is noticed as being missed as long as it is not too disruptive to do so. So, in your case, you either get the trigger on the stack (with the option to pay) or it does not go onto the stack which means the game continues. I don't see why this would have been a game loss.
You're correct, but this is a situation where many a judge will rule incorrectly if they didn't look carefully at policy and don't know the important subtelty involved here.
A player forgets a triggered ability (one that uses the words “when,” “whenever,” or “at the beginning”, usually at the start of the ability's text)
These abilities are considered missed if the player did not acknowledge the ability in any way at the point that it required choices or had a visible in-game effect. If the ability includes the word “may,” assume the player chose not to perform it. Otherwise, use your judgement to decide if putting the trigger on the stack now would be too disruptive - don’t add it to the stack if significant decisions have been made based on the effect not happening! Unlike other illegal actions (which must be pointed out), players may choose whether or not to point out their opponent's missed triggers, though we should encourage them to do so.
Even at Regular REL, it is true in the vast majority of cases that missing a trigger that asks for a payment means that the trigger is fully lost, but a judge might not be aware that this is because the vast majority of such triggers use the word 'may', and incorrectly lump in a Pact payment in the same category. At Regular, the saving grace for the Pact player really is the fact that there is no 'may' in the delayed trigger's wording.
@GroksGames: I encourage you to show this to your local judge so that they don't make the same mistake in the future.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
I happened to encounter a situation where I cast Pact of Negation to counter a negate in response to casting mind funeral on an opponent which caused me to mill him out of his last 10 cards ending the game.
however it was stated that because I couldn't pay the 5 mana on my next upkeep I also lost the game as well resulting in a draw for that round
I happened to encounter a situation where I cast Pact of Negation to counter a negate in response to casting mind funeral on an opponent which caused me to mill him out of his last 10 cards ending the game.
however it was stated that because I couldn't pay the 5 mana on my next upkeep I also lost the game as well resulting in a draw for that round
That is clearly wrong. As soon as you win the game, it ends. Whatever might have happened later if the game had contibued is of no relevance, the game is already over. Your opponent lost in his draw step when trying to draw a card from an empty library. With no other player in the game, you win, game over.
104.1. A game ends immediately when a player wins, when the game is a draw, or when the game is restarted.
104.2a A player still in the game wins the game if that player’s opponents have all left the game. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would preclude that player from winning the game.
Otherwise, what would be the point of Final Fortune?
Okay I understand now. Thank you guys for clarifying. The full story for anyone who cares is..
He has 3 life to my 18. I have around 6 creatures out and he has 0. He casts Plague Wind so I use Pact of Negation. I put it sideways, face up on top of my deck to remember to pay the cost. He then looks at the Pact of Negation. Taking it off my deck, looking at it and putting it in my discard pile. All while I'm using Merfolk Looter at his end step. Forgetting about Pact of Negation (because its under my looted card without me realizing) I untap and attack him for lethal. He then states that I forgot to pay for Pact of Negation therefore i lose. That's when we got into the argument about whether you must pay it or it was optional. I clearly had enough mana and he was just looking for a cheeky win. I called judge and she said game loss =/
I made an account just to say that my opinion on your opponent is that they made a dick move.
Intentional or not, you opponent definitely contributed to you forgetting about it, and that's not cool.
Spam warning issued. You revived a year-old thread and didn't add relevant content to it. New posts in Magic Rulings should only be asking rules questions or answering ones that haven't been answered yet. -MadMageQc
Is the lose the game a "may" affect? or do you have to pay the cost?
I have always read it as.. "At the beginning of your next upkeep pay 3UU, if you can't you lose the game."
instead of "at the beginning of your next upkeep you MAY pay 3UU, if you don't you lose the game"
EDIT (Jun. 20): Edited to conform to rule changes in Dominaria; add rule citation.
Though frankly, I don't see the point for arguing. You lose if you don't pay, wether paying is optional or not.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
He has 3 life to my 18. I have around 6 creatures out and he has 0. He casts Plague Wind so I use Pact of Negation. I put it sideways, face up on top of my deck to remember to pay the cost. He then looks at the Pact of Negation. Taking it off my deck, looking at it and putting it in my discard pile. All while I'm using Merfolk Looter at his end step. Forgetting about Pact of Negation (because its under my looted card without me realizing) I untap and attack him for lethal. He then states that I forgot to pay for Pact of Negation therefore i lose. That's when we got into the argument about whether you must pay it or it was optional. I clearly had enough mana and he was just looking for a cheeky win. I called judge and she said game loss =/
Also, while you cannot put cards on top of your library (so you should have put it into your graveyard right away) you are permitted to put a die or counter or something to remind yourself. In the future, feel free to use those.
@GroksGames: I encourage you to show this to your local judge so that they don't make the same mistake in the future.
however it was stated that because I couldn't pay the 5 mana on my next upkeep I also lost the game as well resulting in a draw for that round
That is clearly wrong. As soon as you win the game, it ends. Whatever might have happened later if the game had contibued is of no relevance, the game is already over. Your opponent lost in his draw step when trying to draw a card from an empty library. With no other player in the game, you win, game over.
Otherwise, what would be the point of Final Fortune?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I made an account just to say that my opinion on your opponent is that they made a dick move.
Intentional or not, you opponent definitely contributed to you forgetting about it, and that's not cool.
Spam warning issued. You revived a year-old thread and didn't add relevant content to it. New posts in Magic Rulings should only be asking rules questions or answering ones that haven't been answered yet. -MadMageQc