I have a friend who refuses to believe that explore triggers can be placed on the stack and responded to, in order to kill the creature before it can receive the +1/+1 counter/s it would receive.
Primarily, I often will do this upon his Jadelight Ranger resolving; as soon as the explore trigger activates, I announce that the explore trigger is on the stack and I respond by playing a removal spell (Harnessed Lightning, Magma Spray, Fatal Push, etc.). I explain that the first explore trigger resolves, but the creature is now in the graveyard and cannot get the +1/+1 counter if a nonland card was revealed and subsequently, the second explore trigger does not occur.
After many times of me trying to explain the rulings how this happens, he does not trust that I am correct. He recently brought up RIX's release notes explaining the explore ruling on how an Explore trigger giving a +1/+1 counter cannot be interrupted after it has resolved, but I tried to explain that in our situation, I am responding to the trigger BEFORE it resolves, not during/after.
Another instance where this is causing confusion outside of explore triggers is, in the same logic where I kill his explore creature before the explore trigger resolves, he responded to my Torrential Gearhulk entering play by casting a removal spell (in this instance, Abrade) to cancel the ETB trigger (me re-casting an instant spell from my graveyard), to which I tried explaining how it still resolves.
I'm hoping that any judges here can break down/clarify the rulings on ETB triggers being placed on the stack and how they resolve when the creature is killed so that my friend does not feel cheated whenever we play, as I am just trying to share what I believe is correct knowledge. I may be just bad at explaining it properly, which is why I am hoping an official judge can do a better job than me. Thanks in advance!
So the Ranger explores twice when it enters the battlefield. At this time, a triggered ability (just one) is put on the stack. At this point every player has to pass priority for the ability to resolve. You can respond by doing, well, something - Shock, say - to kill the Ranger via lethal damage (state based effects are checked long before anything on the stack else can resolve), but its triggered ability still resolves. Dead or not, it explores twice, and the ability's controller gets to reveal the top card twice, put it into hand if it's a land, and put it back or into the 'yard otherwise. However, there's nothing to put a +1/+1 counter on, so that part of the effect never happens.
See, since explore doesn't target, all you do is as much of the effect as you can.
A Torrential Gearhulk triggered ability similarly doesn't care whether its source is on the battlefield when it resolves. As long as it has a legal target, it'll resolve properly. But exiling the targeted instant card in response will counter (fizzle) the triggered ability for lack of target.
While you are correct that you can respond to Jadelight Ranger's ETB trigger, you are wrong in that both explores will take place, beacuse they are part of the same trigger, there is only one trigger. The trigger gets to resolve and it does as much as possible, and it is possible to explore twice, just not to put a counter on the creature if a land is revealed.
Here's the rule from the CR for the Gearhulk scenario to show your friend:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
Thanks for your response! So, to clarify, are both explore triggers placed on the stack? Or does the second explore trigger still activate even though the creature is not in play anymore?
Thanks for your response! So, to clarify, are both explore triggers placed on the stack? Or does the second explore trigger still activate even though the creature is not in play anymore?
Again:
One triggered ability. The result is exploring twice.
The dead Ranger will explore twice. Its controller will reveal the top card of their library, put it into hand if it's land, put it back or graveyard it if not. Then they will do the same thing again. No +1/+1 counters will ever be involved for obvious reasons.
Thanks for your response! So, to clarify, are both explore triggers placed on the stack? Or does the second explore trigger still activate even though the creature is not in play anymore?
There is just one trigger, that instructs to explore twice. Explore is not a trigger itself, but a keyword action, that a permanent can be instructed to do, like investigate, bolster, or attach.
Primarily, I often will do this upon his Jadelight Ranger resolving; as soon as the explore trigger activates, I announce that the explore trigger is on the stack and I respond by playing a removal spell (Harnessed Lightning, Magma Spray, Fatal Push, etc.). I explain that the first explore trigger resolves, but the creature is now in the graveyard and cannot get the +1/+1 counter if a nonland card was revealed and subsequently, the second explore trigger does not occur.
After many times of me trying to explain the rulings how this happens, he does not trust that I am correct. He recently brought up RIX's release notes explaining the explore ruling on how an Explore trigger giving a +1/+1 counter cannot be interrupted after it has resolved, but I tried to explain that in our situation, I am responding to the trigger BEFORE it resolves, not during/after.
Another instance where this is causing confusion outside of explore triggers is, in the same logic where I kill his explore creature before the explore trigger resolves, he responded to my Torrential Gearhulk entering play by casting a removal spell (in this instance, Abrade) to cancel the ETB trigger (me re-casting an instant spell from my graveyard), to which I tried explaining how it still resolves.
I'm hoping that any judges here can break down/clarify the rulings on ETB triggers being placed on the stack and how they resolve when the creature is killed so that my friend does not feel cheated whenever we play, as I am just trying to share what I believe is correct knowledge. I may be just bad at explaining it properly, which is why I am hoping an official judge can do a better job than me. Thanks in advance!
So the Ranger explores twice when it enters the battlefield. At this time, a triggered ability (just one) is put on the stack. At this point every player has to pass priority for the ability to resolve. You can respond by doing, well, something - Shock, say - to kill the Ranger via lethal damage (state based effects are checked long before anything on the stack else can resolve), but its triggered ability still resolves. Dead or not, it explores twice, and the ability's controller gets to reveal the top card twice, put it into hand if it's a land, and put it back or into the 'yard otherwise. However, there's nothing to put a +1/+1 counter on, so that part of the effect never happens.
See, since explore doesn't target, all you do is as much of the effect as you can.
A Torrential Gearhulk triggered ability similarly doesn't care whether its source is on the battlefield when it resolves. As long as it has a legal target, it'll resolve properly. But exiling the targeted instant card in response will counter (fizzle) the triggered ability for lack of target.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Here's the rule from the CR for the Gearhulk scenario to show your friend:
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Again:
One triggered ability. The result is exploring twice.
The dead Ranger will explore twice. Its controller will reveal the top card of their library, put it into hand if it's land, put it back or graveyard it if not. Then they will do the same thing again. No +1/+1 counters will ever be involved for obvious reasons.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
There is just one trigger, that instructs to explore twice. Explore is not a trigger itself, but a keyword action, that a permanent can be instructed to do, like investigate, bolster, or attach.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)