If my opponent casts and resolves a Regal Force, then I cast Mind Bend on it in response to its triggered ability, will Regal Force's triggered ability already on the stack change to the new color word I pick?
EDIT: (Also, what rule(s) would this involve in the comprehensive rules? I can't find anything about it.)
No. Once the ability triggers, its text is that of the text that created the trigger. So, the text of the trigger will look for green creatures even if you change the text on Regal Force to "Black".
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
However, if you use something like Alter Reality the text of the spell that you are changing will carry through when that spell becomes a permanent. So, if you target Regal Force on the stack and change Green to Black, when it enters, its text will still be changed and the trigger will be changed along with it.
400.7a. Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.
No. When Regal Force enters the battlefield, its ability will trigger and go on the stack (C.R. 608.3, 116.3b, 116.5) but changing Regal Force's text after that won't affect the enters-the-battlefield ability on the stack. This is because that ability, "[o]nce ... triggered", "exists ... independently" of Regal Force (C.R. 112.7a) and goes on the stack with "the text of the ability that created it" (C.R. 603.3), so that ability on the stack remains unaffected by any future text changes on Regal Force itself.
EDIT: Correction after comment 7 was posted.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 10 was posted.
EDIT (Sep. 29, 2018): Correct quotation.
The ability on the stack is the ability on Regal Force. While a student of first-order logic can tell this is untrue in absolute terms, it is made true by CR 603.3 as well as the case of the first example of CR 702.1b .
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Notice the italicized portion and the word 'becomes'.
(702.1b) Example: Volcano Hellion has the ability “Volcano Hellion has echo {X}, where X is your life total.” If your life total is 10 when Volcano Hellion’s echo ability triggers but 5 when it resolves, the echo cost to pay is {5}.
This example shows that the ability on the stack derives its text from its origin as a characteristic in an ongoing manner.
Changing Regal Force's text will change its ability, which will use the new word as it resolves and gathers the information needed to apply the card drawing effect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Epic banner by Erasmus of æтђєг.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The ability on the stack is the ability on Regal Force. While a student of first-order logic can tell this is untrue in absolute terms, it is made true by CR 603.3 as well as the case of the first example of CR 702.1b .
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Notice the italicized portion and the word 'becomes'.
(702.1b) Example: Volcano Hellion has the ability “Volcano Hellion has echo {X}, where X is your life total.” If your life total is 10 when Volcano Hellion’s echo ability triggers but 5 when it resolves, the echo cost to pay is {5}.
This example shows that the ability on the stack derives its text from its origin as a characteristic in an ongoing manner.
Changing Regal Force's text will change its ability, which will use the new word as it resolves and gathers the information needed to apply the card drawing effect.
I'm afraid I must disagree with your last sentence. C.R. 702.1b applies only to a specific kind of ability, namely a keyword ability granted by "[a]n effect ... [that] define(s) a variable in that ability based on ... information about the game state". It doesn't apply to all activated or triggered abilities. In particular, C.R. 702.1b doesn't apply to Regal Force's enters-the-battlefield ability. Moreover, under C.R. 112.7a, a triggered ability "exists ... independently of its source" "[o]nce ... triggered".
EDIT: Correction after comment 7 was posted.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 8 was posted.
CR112.7a says that an ability on the stack exists independently of its source, not that it is independent of its source.
What 702.1b actually says doesn't matter; the important thing is that an ability of a permanent can change its text (e.g. "Echo X ") and it will impact the text of the entity on the Stack.
EDIT: That is to say, you can't read 702.1b as actually explaining the example given merely by allowing it to refer to the case as an echo or as an X - because the actual ability of Volcano Hellion is one of giving a certain object a certain ability (itself, echo). To get from the idea that Volcano Hellion's echo ability is continually changed to the idea that the Stack entity uses the new value, you have to make the same inference as I did.
The ability on the stack is the ability on Regal Force. While a student of first-order logic can tell this is untrue in absolute terms, it is made true by CR 603.3 as well as the case of the first example of CR 702.1b .
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Notice the italicized portion and the word 'becomes'.
(702.1b) Example: Volcano Hellion has the ability “Volcano Hellion has echo {X}, where X is your life total.” If your life total is 10 when Volcano Hellion’s echo ability triggers but 5 when it resolves, the echo cost to pay is {5}.
This example shows that the ability on the stack derives its text from its origin as a characteristic in an ongoing manner.
Changing Regal Force's text will change its ability, which will use the new word as it resolves and gathers the information needed to apply the card drawing effect.
No. Changing the text of Regal Force will not affect the ability. Your example of Volcano Hellion is not quite applicable because the ability itself has the text that says "pay {X} where X is your life total". X will be evaluated as the trigger resolves because the trigger has the appropriate text to determine the value of X.
No. Changing the text of Regal Force will not affect the ability. Your example of Volcano Hellion is not quite applicable because the ability itself has the text that says "pay {X} where X is your life total". X will be evaluated as the trigger resolves because the trigger has the appropriate text to determine the value of X.
Which ability? Volcano Hellion has naturally three abilities - two if it's not a permanent: "Volcano Hellion has echo X, where X is your life total", "echo X", and the one that hurts things.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Epic banner by Erasmus of æтђєг.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Which ability? Volcano Hellion has naturally three abilities - two if it's not a permanent: "Volcano Hellion has echo X, where X is your life total", "echo X", and the one that hurts things.
It seems obvious that it's the "echo x" ability, since that's the one that is changing and uses the stack.
But it's a fair point; it seems like the "Volcano Hellion has echo x, where X is your life total" ability is the one that would actually care about your life total. The actual instance of echo it gives you is just the echo ability with no variables, right? So if I have 7 life it has "echo 7".
On my upkeep that goes on the stack, with all the normal text of an echo ability, but independent of the card that defines that echo ability, right? So if I take a bolt and go to 4, that's still an independent "echo 7" ability on the stack, from a card that just so happens to currently have "echo 4".
But the gatherer rulings say: "Volcano Hellion’s echo cost constantly changes; it’s not locked in when it enters the battlefield. The echo cost you pay is equal your life total as the echo triggered ability resolves."
So which is it? Does the ability on the stack exist independently as a copy of "echo 7", or does it change when the text on the hellion changes? Or is Hellion's first ability actually...
Volcano Hellion has "echo X, where X is your life total."
and that's supposed to be implied by the language?
As far as the text change thing, it seems like rules 112.7a and 603.3 are the entirety of it, and since nothing I can find explicitly contradicts that, I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't change. I guess I'll just need to play Sleight of Mind instead.
If Volcano Hellion could have had an ability "echo , where X is your life total", why wasn't it actually printed with "echo , where X is your life total" ? No, it can only define the X through an ability which gives itself echo.
Now, whether it ends up having echo or some ability like echo , I couldn't say for sure; if it has echo , then it's still taken care of by the fact that "instances of X on an object are all the same value" (CR107.3h) . Whatever the case for that, it's unavoidable that the ability on the Stack is tracking Volcano Hellion.
702.1b makes the echo always subject to the definition of "Volcano Hellion has echo , where X is your life total" , but only a further principle could make the cost you pay for the trigger follow what happens to the echo .
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Epic banner by Erasmus of æтђєг.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
EDIT: (Also, what rule(s) would this involve in the comprehensive rules? I can't find anything about it.)
- Rabid Wombat
However, if you use something like Alter Reality the text of the spell that you are changing will carry through when that spell becomes a permanent. So, if you target Regal Force on the stack and change Green to Black, when it enters, its text will still be changed and the trigger will be changed along with it.
EDIT: Correction after comment 7 was posted.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 10 was posted.
EDIT (Sep. 29, 2018): Correct quotation.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Notice the italicized portion and the word 'becomes'.
(702.1b) Example: Volcano Hellion has the ability “Volcano Hellion has echo {X}, where X is your life total.” If your life total is 10 when Volcano Hellion’s echo ability triggers but 5 when it resolves, the echo cost to pay is {5}.
This example shows that the ability on the stack derives its text from its origin as a characteristic in an ongoing manner.
Changing Regal Force's text will change its ability, which will use the new word as it resolves and gathers the information needed to apply the card drawing effect.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I'm afraid I must disagree with your last sentence.C.R. 702.1b applies only to a specific kind of ability, namely a keyword ability granted by "[a]n effect ... [that] define(s) a variable in that ability based on ... information about the game state". It doesn't apply to all activated or triggered abilities. In particular, C.R. 702.1b doesn't apply to Regal Force's enters-the-battlefield ability. Moreover, under C.R. 112.7a, a triggered ability "exists ... independently of its source" "[o]nce ... triggered".EDIT: Correction after comment 7 was posted.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 8 was posted.
What 702.1b actually says doesn't matter; the important thing is that an ability of a permanent can change its text (e.g. "Echo X ") and it will impact the text of the entity on the Stack.
EDIT: That is to say, you can't read 702.1b as actually explaining the example given merely by allowing it to refer to the case as an echo or as an X - because the actual ability of Volcano Hellion is one of giving a certain object a certain ability (itself, echo). To get from the idea that Volcano Hellion's echo ability is continually changed to the idea that the Stack entity uses the new value, you have to make the same inference as I did.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Which ability? Volcano Hellion has naturally three abilities - two if it's not a permanent: "Volcano Hellion has echo X, where X is your life total", "echo X", and the one that hurts things.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
But it's a fair point; it seems like the "Volcano Hellion has echo x, where X is your life total" ability is the one that would actually care about your life total. The actual instance of echo it gives you is just the echo ability with no variables, right? So if I have 7 life it has "echo 7".
On my upkeep that goes on the stack, with all the normal text of an echo ability, but independent of the card that defines that echo ability, right? So if I take a bolt and go to 4, that's still an independent "echo 7" ability on the stack, from a card that just so happens to currently have "echo 4".
But the gatherer rulings say: "Volcano Hellion’s echo cost constantly changes; it’s not locked in when it enters the battlefield. The echo cost you pay is equal your life total as the echo triggered ability resolves."
So which is it? Does the ability on the stack exist independently as a copy of "echo 7", or does it change when the text on the hellion changes? Or is Hellion's first ability actually...
and that's supposed to be implied by the language?
As far as the text change thing, it seems like rules 112.7a and 603.3 are the entirety of it, and since nothing I can find explicitly contradicts that, I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't change. I guess I'll just need to play Sleight of Mind instead.
- Rabid Wombat
Now, whether it ends up having echo or some ability like echo , I couldn't say for sure; if it has echo , then it's still taken care of by the fact that "instances of X on an object are all the same value" (CR107.3h) . Whatever the case for that, it's unavoidable that the ability on the Stack is tracking Volcano Hellion.
702.1b makes the echo always subject to the definition of "Volcano Hellion has echo , where X is your life total" , but only a further principle could make the cost you pay for the trigger follow what happens to the echo .
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].