Let's assume you have 2x Chromatic Sphere, which is the worst case scenario. It should go like this :
Step 1 : Announce that you will play a Chromatic Sphere
Step 2 : Use KCI to sac Scrap Trawler and Myr Retriever to pay for the star - You now have 4 mana in pool
Step 3 : Spend 1 mana for the Chromatic Sphere that you played - You now have 3 mana in pool
Step 4 : Both Scrap Trawler and Myr Retriever goes to the yard at the same time, meaning you get 2 triggers off them.
Trawler gets back Retriever and Retriever gets back Trawler and the Chromatic Sphere in the yard
Step 5 : Play the Trawler - You now have no mana in pool, 1x Trawler in play and 1x Chromatic Star in play
Step 6 : Sac the Chromatic Star in play with KCI to play Retriever - You are now back to step 1
If there's a 0 mana artifact in the yard, you can go infinite mana through step 6 and then proceed to draw as many cards as you want.
If you have at least one Chromatic Star instead of a Chromatic Sphere, you get to draw as many cards as you want through step 6.
Basically I want to make sure that step 2 is legal that you can activate KCI multiple times even though it would over pay for the spell.
Payment is fine: 601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
I'm still trying to figure out why this combo couldn't go infinite...
You do have to make sure to sacrifice Myr Retriever before Scrap Trawler so that Trawler triggers for Myr Retriever. They don't die at the same time and you can't make them die at the same time because mana abilities, while they don't use the stack, still may only be activated one at a time.
Looks like a loop to me, except you're drawing a card which is of course limited.
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So when Myr Retreaver is sacrificed it is(?) possible to use Ironworks to then also sack Trawler before the triggers from sacking Retrever are placed on the stack? Then all triggers go on the stack at once with both creatures in graveyard available as targets?
And this is possible because it's manna ability, where as Viscera Seer would not allow this?
So when Myr Retreaver is sacrificed it is(?) possible to use Ironworks to then also sack Trawler before the triggers from sacking Retrever are placed on the stack? Then all triggers go on the stack at once with both creatures in graveyard available as targets?
And this is possible because it's manna ability, where as Viscera Seer would not allow this?
It is only possible if you're sacrificing the artifacts during the announcement of a spell (when you're able to activate mana abilities), since you'll get a chance to sacrifice both artifacts before putting their triggers on the stack. Otherwise, after you activate the Ironworks' ability the first time, before you get priority to activate the Ironwork's ability again, you have to put the trigger from the Retriever on the stack, meaning you don't get a chance to sacrifice the Trawler before putting the Retriever's trigger on the stack.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
When something in the game asks for a mana payment, players can activate mana abilties right before they have to pay in order to get the nessessary mana, even at times when they don't have priority, like during the casting of a spell, actvating an ability, or resolving such. Triggers have to wait to go on the stack until a player would get priority, so even if triggers go off at different times, they often will be put on the stack at the same time. Since casting the Sphere asks for a mana payment, mana abilities, like that of KCI, can be activated without limit during that process. Just because you already have enough mana to pay doesn't mean you have to stop making mana. So yes, KCI having a mana abilty is one key to this.
So when Myr Retreaver is sacrificed it is(?) possible to use Ironworks to then also sack Trawler before the triggers from sacking Retrever are placed on the stack? Then all triggers go on the stack at once with both creatures in graveyard available as targets?
And this is possible because it's manna ability, where as Viscera Seer would not allow this?
It is possible because of this rule:
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
You are casting Chromatic Star; while you are casting it, you must eventually pay for it.
As time nears for payment, the game allows you to generate mana (rule 601.2g); you're allowed to generate TOO MUCH mana, which is why you may activate Ironworks multiple times.
Does anyone know how you do the overpay trick on mtgo? Do you have to hold ctrl to hold priority when you select the spell or ability you want to play, and keep holding it until after you've sacrificed both scrap trawler and myr retriever?
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Can't you go infinite with just 1x Scrap Trawler, 1x Myr Retriever, 1x KCI, 2x Chromatic Star(1x in the yard, 1x in hand)?
Let's assume you have 2x Chromatic Sphere, which is the worst case scenario. It should go like this :
Step 1 : Announce that you will play a Chromatic Sphere
Step 2 : Use KCI to sac Scrap Trawler and Myr Retriever to pay for the star - You now have 4 mana in pool
Step 3 : Spend 1 mana for the Chromatic Sphere that you played - You now have 3 mana in pool
Step 4 : Both Scrap Trawler and Myr Retriever goes to the yard at the same time, meaning you get 2 triggers off them.
Trawler gets back Retriever and Retriever gets back Trawler and the Chromatic Sphere in the yard
Step 5 : Play the Trawler - You now have no mana in pool, 1x Trawler in play and 1x Chromatic Star in play
Step 6 : Sac the Chromatic Star in play with KCI to play Retriever - You are now back to step 1
If there's a 0 mana artifact in the yard, you can go infinite mana through step 6 and then proceed to draw as many cards as you want.
If you have at least one Chromatic Star instead of a Chromatic Sphere, you get to draw as many cards as you want through step 6.
Basically I want to make sure that step 2 is legal that you can activate KCI multiple times even though it would over pay for the spell.
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
I'm still trying to figure out why this combo couldn't go infinite...
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Looks like a loop to me, except you're drawing a card which is of course limited.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
And this is possible because it's manna ability, where as Viscera Seer would not allow this?
It is only possible if you're sacrificing the artifacts during the announcement of a spell (when you're able to activate mana abilities), since you'll get a chance to sacrifice both artifacts before putting their triggers on the stack. Otherwise, after you activate the Ironworks' ability the first time, before you get priority to activate the Ironwork's ability again, you have to put the trigger from the Retriever on the stack, meaning you don't get a chance to sacrifice the Trawler before putting the Retriever's trigger on the stack.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
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601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
You are casting Chromatic Star; while you are casting it, you must eventually pay for it.
As time nears for payment, the game allows you to generate mana (rule 601.2g); you're allowed to generate TOO MUCH mana, which is why you may activate Ironworks multiple times.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules