Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post on, but it seems to be the most general help thread and I couldn't find a related topic. I have a question about the stack.
So here's my hypothetical I would love an answer to. So let's say my opponent is at 14 life, and they play griselbrand. They use his ability to pay 7 life and draw 7 cards. I respond by playing a path to exile, adding to the stack. He responds to my path by activating the ability again, expecting only one ability to resolve and for him to get his 7 cards and lose 7 life before the creature dies, when my path resolves. But now, let's say I respond to his second activation by countering my original path to exile while it is on the stack, so the stack would then become: counterspell resolves targeting path to exile, he pays 7 life and gets his cards, then the path is canceled and griselbrand remains on the battlefield, and his original ability activation would happen, draining my opponent of 7 more life and winning me the game. Assuming he doesn't have the ability to add anything to the stack in response other than griselbrand's ability (for lack of mana or cards in hand, etc.), he would then lose the game correct? Does the opponent have the ability to change his mind about that ability? My common sense tells me no. If you could help clear up any confusion on this subject I would appreciate it.
Sorry if this is the wrong thread to post this on, I'm new here and I can figure out how to move it if I need to. Thanks in advance!
Jack
In your scenario, your opponent immediately lost the second time they activated Griselbrand since paying life is part of the cost. And no, your opponent cannot choose to "undo" an activation or spell because something changed. However, your entire interaction here with Path to Exile is incorrect. What really happens (or should have happened) is this:
They Activate Griselbrand and go down to 7.
Before it resolves, you cast Path targeting Griselbrand.
They let it resolve and they go get their land.
The original Griselbrand activation resolves and they draw 7 cards
Notice that the original activation still resolves even though Griselbrand is gone. Which means your whole "gotcha" play with Path to Exile doesn't work. They don't need to activate Griselbrand again because a) they will die when they do so and b) they are still going to get their 7 cards.
EDIT: Since this is a hypothetical you came up with to help understand the stack, lets try a better one (unless otherwise stated, players have the mana needed):
Player A casts Chainer, Dementia Master with a number of creature cards in the graveyard while Player B has Scavenging Ooze on the battlefield with only 1 green mana source available.
Chainer resolves and Player A activates Chainer's ability by paying 3 black mana and paying 3 life targeting one of their creature cards in the graveyard. Player B then responds with Ooze's activated ability and targets the same card. Player A responds and activates Chainer again targeting the same creature card and they pay 3 black mana and 3 life. Now, the stack looks like this:
So, the first ability resolves and the creature is reanimated. Then, each player gets a chance to perform any actions. If they don't, Ooze's activation goes to resolve and is countered now that its target is no longer legal. A round of priority is passed again and, assuming no one performed any actions, Chainer's original activation goes to resolve. It too is countered since its target is gone.
In the end, Player A paid 6 black mana and 6 life to get a creature from the graveyard and Player B paid 1 green mana and got nothing.
The thing to remember here is that Griselbrand does not make you draw 7 cards and lose 7 life like a bigger Sign in Blood. Instead, that life loss is a COST to activate that ability. As it is a cost, they pay that 7 life before the ability goes on the stack. Killing that creature in response to the ability doesn't keep them from losing life (much as how killing Chameleon Colossus in regard to an activation doesn't stop them from wasting 4 mana on that activation).
In your example, the opponent would lose the game.
so the stack would then become: counterspell resolves targeting path to exile, he pays 7 life and gets his cards, then the path is canceled and griselbrand remains on the battlefield, and his original ability activation would happen, draining my opponent of 7 more life and winning me the game
Another point I think would be helpful to make is clarifying this subset of actions. As mentioned, there are some issues with the process as a whole, but there are a couple things here that I think would be helpful to expand on.
So, let's assume the opponent is at 15 life instead of 14 (so they don't just die from this). And, of course, we will ignore the intended end result. Now, from the above, the stack now looks like this:
Counterspell targeting Path to Exile
Griselbrand activation 2
Path to Exile
Griselbrand activation 1
One quick thing before we break this down. In your original summary you said "counterspell resolves targeting Path to Exile". You target Path to Exile with Counterspell when you cast it; not when it resolves. Anyway, onto the stack above.
Counterspell resolves and counters Path to Exile. Path to Exile is now immediately removed from the stack so now it looks like this:
Griselbrand activation 2
Griselbrand activation 1
Again, priority is passed and if no one does anything, the top most object resolves so Griselbrand's controller draws 7 cards (remember they already paid the life for both activations so in this modified scenario, they are at 1 right now).
Priority has passed again and the first activation resolves and they draw another 7 cards.
A semi-related question: when an activated ability of a permanent in play goes on the stack, that ability will resolve even if the permanent which put that ability on the stack is no longer in play.
However, if the player controlling said permanent loses the game while that ability is still on the stack, the ability is removed from the stack when the player is removed from the game. Is this correct?
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
They just couldn't put 7th edition into Modern because of the card borders? Seriously? Count me out.
However, there is a small caveat. If said ability has alresdy started to resolve when the player loses the game, it will still resolve fully. An example for where this can happen is Triskaidekaphobia. (Though it's a triggered ability, those are no different from activated abilities in that regard.)
So here's my hypothetical I would love an answer to. So let's say my opponent is at 14 life, and they play griselbrand. They use his ability to pay 7 life and draw 7 cards. I respond by playing a path to exile, adding to the stack. He responds to my path by activating the ability again, expecting only one ability to resolve and for him to get his 7 cards and lose 7 life before the creature dies, when my path resolves. But now, let's say I respond to his second activation by countering my original path to exile while it is on the stack, so the stack would then become: counterspell resolves targeting path to exile, he pays 7 life and gets his cards, then the path is canceled and griselbrand remains on the battlefield, and his original ability activation would happen, draining my opponent of 7 more life and winning me the game. Assuming he doesn't have the ability to add anything to the stack in response other than griselbrand's ability (for lack of mana or cards in hand, etc.), he would then lose the game correct? Does the opponent have the ability to change his mind about that ability? My common sense tells me no. If you could help clear up any confusion on this subject I would appreciate it.
Sorry if this is the wrong thread to post this on, I'm new here and I can figure out how to move it if I need to. Thanks in advance!
Jack
Griselbrand
Path to Exile
In your scenario, your opponent immediately lost the second time they activated Griselbrand since paying life is part of the cost. And no, your opponent cannot choose to "undo" an activation or spell because something changed. However, your entire interaction here with Path to Exile is incorrect. What really happens (or should have happened) is this:
They Activate Griselbrand and go down to 7.
Before it resolves, you cast Path targeting Griselbrand.
They let it resolve and they go get their land.
The original Griselbrand activation resolves and they draw 7 cards
Notice that the original activation still resolves even though Griselbrand is gone. Which means your whole "gotcha" play with Path to Exile doesn't work. They don't need to activate Griselbrand again because a) they will die when they do so and b) they are still going to get their 7 cards.
EDIT: Since this is a hypothetical you came up with to help understand the stack, lets try a better one (unless otherwise stated, players have the mana needed):
Player A casts Chainer, Dementia Master with a number of creature cards in the graveyard while Player B has Scavenging Ooze on the battlefield with only 1 green mana source available.
Chainer resolves and Player A activates Chainer's ability by paying 3 black mana and paying 3 life targeting one of their creature cards in the graveyard. Player B then responds with Ooze's activated ability and targets the same card. Player A responds and activates Chainer again targeting the same creature card and they pay 3 black mana and 3 life. Now, the stack looks like this:
Ooze Activation
Chainer Activation
So, the first ability resolves and the creature is reanimated. Then, each player gets a chance to perform any actions. If they don't, Ooze's activation goes to resolve and is countered now that its target is no longer legal. A round of priority is passed again and, assuming no one performed any actions, Chainer's original activation goes to resolve. It too is countered since its target is gone.
In the end, Player A paid 6 black mana and 6 life to get a creature from the graveyard and Player B paid 1 green mana and got nothing.
In your example, the opponent would lose the game.
Edit: And I am apparently a verrry slow typist.
So, let's assume the opponent is at 15 life instead of 14 (so they don't just die from this). And, of course, we will ignore the intended end result. Now, from the above, the stack now looks like this:
Griselbrand activation 2
Path to Exile
Griselbrand activation 1
One quick thing before we break this down. In your original summary you said "counterspell resolves targeting Path to Exile". You target Path to Exile with Counterspell when you cast it; not when it resolves. Anyway, onto the stack above.
Counterspell resolves and counters Path to Exile. Path to Exile is now immediately removed from the stack so now it looks like this:
Griselbrand activation 1
Again, priority is passed and if no one does anything, the top most object resolves so Griselbrand's controller draws 7 cards (remember they already paid the life for both activations so in this modified scenario, they are at 1 right now).
Priority has passed again and the first activation resolves and they draw another 7 cards.
However, if the player controlling said permanent loses the game while that ability is still on the stack, the ability is removed from the stack when the player is removed from the game. Is this correct?
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
However, there is a small caveat. If said ability has alresdy started to resolve when the player loses the game, it will still resolve fully. An example for where this can happen is Triskaidekaphobia. (Though it's a triggered ability, those are no different from activated abilities in that regard.)
Former Rules Advisor
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(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
ETA: and by the way i have an irrational fear of that card.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.