I'm pretty sure, I know the answers, but want to confirm. If I cast Weird Harvest, I don't have to reveal the cards I searched for until everyone else has chosen theirs, right? And do players later in the turn order get to know the amount of cards the previous players seached for before choosing to search themselves?
608.2c The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, [snip]
608.2d If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can’t choose an option that’s illegal or impossible, with the exception that having a library with no cards in it doesn’t make drawing a card an impossible action (see rule 120.3). If an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among any number of untargeted players and/or objects, the player chooses the amount and division such that at least one player or object is chosen if able, and each chosen player or object receives at least one of whatever is being divided. (Note that if an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among some number of target objects and/or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put onto the stack rather than at this time; see rule 601.2d.)
Example: A spell’s instruction reads, “You may sacrifice a creature. If you don’t, you lose 4 life.” A player who controls no creatures can’t choose the sacrifice option.
608.2e Some spells and abilities have multiple steps or actions, denoted by separate sentences or clauses, that involve multiple players. In these cases, the choices for the first action are made in APNAP order, and then the first action is processed simultaneously. Then the choices for the second action are made in APNAP order, and then that action is processed simultaneously, and so on. See rule 101.4.
608.2d can confirm that the decisions for each part happen just as that part is carried out. This would include the choice like how many cards to search for. 608.2e confirms that the players make these decisions in APNAP order. So yes, the first player searches for some number of cards, then everybody else, then those cards are revealed, then they move, then the libraries are shuffled.
I would venture at least that, on a practical basis, the number of cards found has to become discernible once they've been found.
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608.2d can confirm that the decisions for each part happen just as that part is carried out. This would include the choice like how many cards to search for. 608.2e confirms that the players make these decisions in APNAP order. So yes, the first player searches for some number of cards, then everybody else, then those cards are revealed, then they move, then the libraries are shuffled.
I would venture at least that, on a practical basis, the number of cards found has to become discernible once they've been found.
So each player in turn order decides on wether to search or not and the amount of cards to search for before the next player makes these choices? No player searches before everyone made their choices? Do they even choose an amount of cards to search for, seeing as X was set by the spell's caster and a player can deliberately fail to find cards with a stated quality when searching a hidden zone?
So each player in turn order decides on wether to search or not and the amount of cards to search for before the next player makes these choices? No player searches before everyone made their choices? Do they even choose an amount of cards to search for, seeing as X was set by the spell's caster and a player can deliberately fail to find cards with a stated quality when searching a hidden zone?
C.R. 101.4 explains the procedure for APNAP order: "If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time", in this case, "search [their] librar[ies] for up to X creature cards", then each player, in turn order starting from the active player, "makes any choices required" (C.R. 101.4). In this case, the "choices required" include at least whether the player searches (the spell says "may search") and the number of cards to search for up to X (the spell says "up to X") (C.R. 608.2d).
The first action to be done simultaneously, searching a library, involves "look[ing] at all cards in" that library and "find[ing] ... card[s]" called for by the spell or ability (C.R. 701.18a). However, in this case, since "creature cards" are to be searched for, a player "isn't required to find some or all of" the quantity of cards called for (C.R. 701.18b). Because, in this case, a player isn't so required, and because finding cards is part of the definition of searching, that player will necessarily decide whether to find cards as he or she searches, so that this is also a "choic[e] required" within the meaning of C.R. 101.4.
EDIT (Jul. 13, 2018): Some rules were renumbered with Dominaria.
Still not sure, wether I undertsood all of that correctly. Maybe an example will help me.
In a 2-player game between player A and player B, it's A's turn and he casts Weird Harvest with X=2, going though all the nessessary steps of casting the spell. Everyone passes and the spell resolves. Now this is what happens as I undertand it:
1) A chooses wether to search or not and how many cards he'll search for. He can choose between 0, 1, or 2. He chooses to do the search and chooses to search for 2 cards.
2) B chooses wether to search or not and how many cards he'll search for. He can choose between 0, 1, or 2. He knows, that A will search, and that he'll search for 2 cards. He, too, chooses to search and to search for 2 cards.
3) Both players search their libraries simultaneously, but A has to choose all his cards first. So B knows wether A actually found 2 cards or if he abandoned his search after only finding 1 or 0, and B can take that into consideration while doing his own search. But B does not know what those cards are yet. Both players can only find as many cards as they chose to search for in steps 1) and 2), even if X is higher and would have allowed for more.
4) All chosen cards are revealed simultaneously, then put into their owners' hands.
5) Both libraries are shuffled simultaneously.
Is this how it plays out? Or did I make a mistake somewhere?
Edit:
Additional question:
Can a player choose to search for 0 cards, just to get a shuffle out of the Harvest?
Resolving WH involves three two decisions:
A-choosing whether to search or not B-choosing a maximum
C-picking a specific number of cards as search is performed
The rule is:
1) announce choices
2) perform actions
3) make subsequent choices
4) perform subsequent actions
...
Therefore, each player announces his/her intention whether to seacrh or not, then each of those who will search announce a maximum number.
Then searches are performed.
The number of cards actually found also is a choice: player B should know the number of cards found by A before finishing his/her search. IMHO.
Can a player choose to search for 0 cards, just to get a shuffle out of the Harvest?
This raises memories of a long-ago conversation we had. If you remember, I dubbed such action a 'Zero-Action' for which, alas! there are no rules yet in the CR, except for two very specific exceptions (rule 117.3a & b).
Since no rule covers the question you ask, the answer is undefined, until a Wizard representative makes the call.
Edit: forgot a third exception: 119.8.
Can a player choose to search for 0 cards, just to get a shuffle out of the Harvest?
This raises memories of a long-ago conversation we had. If you remember, I dubbed such action a 'Zero-Action' for which, alas! there are no rules yet in the CR, except for two very specific exceptions (rule 117.3a & b).
Since no rule covers the question you ask, the answer is undefined, until a Wizard representative makes the call.
For that question, there is a clear answer: A player can choose to search for zero cards with Weird Harvest and still be considered to have searched. That's because searching a library, under C.R. 701.18a, consists of two parts: "look[ing] at all cards" in the library, and "find[ing the] card[s]" called for. Even if no cards must be found, looking at those cards is still part of the search (C.R. 701.18c describes a similar case).
EDIT (Jul. 13, 2018): Some rules were renumbered with Dominaria. Corrections.
EDIT (Aug. 9, 2018): Corrected rule citations.
Therefore, each player announces his/her intention whether to seacrh or not, then each of those who will search announce a maximum number.
Then searches are performed.
This seems contrary to rule 101.4, which says, that a player makes all nessessary choices for the action, and then the other players in turn order do the same. Doesn't that mean, that choosing to search and choosing the amount of cards to search for are both done before the next player makes his choices?
101.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player’s left) makes any choices required, followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the “Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order” rule.
The amount of cards to search for is not a decision of the players (I was wrong in my previous post): any player who searches will search for 'up to X' cards, using X as defined when WH was cast.
(which answers your secondary question: YES, a player may search for zero card, since the only choice is to search or not)
( but what if the caster chooses X = 0??? )
That still changes nothing to the main situation: players have two decisions to make, whether to search or not, and which cards will actually be found.
The actual number of cards found is made as the search is performed. Still, this is a decision: player B should be allowed to know player A's choice before making his/hers.
There also is a practical reason why player B should know the number of cards A picked before ending his/her search: how is A supposed to hide the number of cards he/she picked?
Choices are made -as the player applies the effect-. There is no set number of found cards before the library actually is searched. So, in APNAP order, the players search for cards (concealed, but not the number found), then reveal them, then move them, then shuffle.
I would say that the choice to search can't be separated from actually finding the cards. Cutting up the effect that way is contrary to a natural language interpretation of the sentence, and to the commas-clauses rule of thumb. Reconfirm the language from 608.2e, but also regard 608.2d again - it refers to applying effects, not parsing a sentence. Searching for a card is an effect, one effect. It may analyze into two decisions from some point of view, but not according to the language of 608.2e, which tells us to regard "separate sentences or clauses."
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Choices are made -as the player applies the effect-. There is no set number of found cards before the library actually is searched. So, in APNAP order, the players search for cards (concealed, but not the number found), then reveal them, then move them, then shuffle.
I would say that the choice to search can't be separated from actually finding the cards. Cutting up the effect that way is contrary to a natural language interpretation of the sentence, and to the commas-clauses rule of thumb. Reconfirm the language from 608.2e, but also regard 608.2d again - it refers to applying effects, not parsing a sentence. Searching for a card is an effect, one effect. It may analyze into two decisions from some point of view, but not according to the language of 608.2e, which tells us to regard "separate sentences or clauses."
101.4 however says that this is how it's to be done. If multiple players would take simultaneous actions requiring choices, any choices nessessary to actually take the action are made by all players in APNAP order before the actions are taken. Meaning, all players have to choose to search or not before anyone can start searching.
I've visited the Ask a Magic Judge chat and I got an answer from "Cyphern" on this matter. The choices known to all players before the Weird Harvest search happensif multiple players search at once with Weird Harvest (under C.R. 101.4) include at least whether each player will search, a number X or less chosen by each player, and whether each player will find fewer than the chosen number of cards (C.R. 701.18b). ("Cyphern" also cited the rulings for Veteran Explorer.)
EDIT (Jul. 13, 2018): Correctness edit to conform to rule added with Core Set 2019.
EDIT (Feb. 19, 2020): Corrected citation to a rule that was renumbered since May 7, 2017.
I can't say I find any textual basis for that ruling. CR101.4 tells players what to do about choices and actions, but it doesn't define what choices are. My reading of 608.2xx is at least a formulation. The ruling made is the best example of the kind of 'analytical multiplication' I was hedging against. Look at this, "a number X or less chosen by each player, and whether each player will find fewer than the chosen number of cards". I cannot find that intelligible, that information both as to a prospective number and then whether that number is binding are really both relevant. There's no substance to that distinction. But just because it can be made doesn't mean 608.2d respects it. 101.4/608.2e are in no position to inform us what Magic regards as choice, only with how we order them when a plurality of players is apparently instructed.
I can agree with a round of each player choosing to exercise the "may" of the effect, but only one that reveals number if, and when, the library is actually searched. Even in the special rule for searching, which permits any qualified search of hidden locations to fail, CR 701.7b begins "If a player is searching a hidden zone...", so it's something done -when you actually search the library- (re: Ob Nixilis, Unshackled).
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The rules update for Core Set 2019 added a new rule, C.R. 701.18h, which clarifies the situation when two or more players do a search at the same time: they each "loo[k] at the appropriate cards at the same time, then those players decide in APNAP order (see rule 101.4) which card to find." Thus, if both players in a two-player game each search their libraries with Weird Harvest, the nonactive player will know "which card[s]" the active player will find before the nonactive player chooses what to find (C.R. 101.4, 101.4a-b, 701.18h), except those cards "may remain face down as they're chosen" but must still be "clearly indicate[d]" (C.R. 101.4a, 400.2).
EDIT (Jul. 21): Correction on the meaning of the rule change for two-player games.
EDIT (Aug. 9): Add rule citation.
EDIT (Jan. 9, 2019): Further correctness edit.
I'm pretty sure, I know the answers, but want to confirm. If I cast Weird Harvest, I don't have to reveal the cards I searched for until everyone else has chosen theirs, right? And do players later in the turn order get to know the amount of cards the previous players seached for before choosing to search themselves?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
608.2c The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, [snip]
608.2d If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can’t choose an option that’s illegal or impossible, with the exception that having a library with no cards in it doesn’t make drawing a card an impossible action (see rule 120.3). If an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among any number of untargeted players and/or objects, the player chooses the amount and division such that at least one player or object is chosen if able, and each chosen player or object receives at least one of whatever is being divided. (Note that if an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among some number of target objects and/or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put onto the stack rather than at this time; see rule 601.2d.)
Example: A spell’s instruction reads, “You may sacrifice a creature. If you don’t, you lose 4 life.” A player who controls no creatures can’t choose the sacrifice option.
608.2e Some spells and abilities have multiple steps or actions, denoted by separate sentences or clauses, that involve multiple players. In these cases, the choices for the first action are made in APNAP order, and then the first action is processed simultaneously. Then the choices for the second action are made in APNAP order, and then that action is processed simultaneously, and so on. See rule 101.4.
608.2d can confirm that the decisions for each part happen just as that part is carried out. This would include the choice like how many cards to search for. 608.2e confirms that the players make these decisions in APNAP order. So yes, the first player searches for some number of cards, then everybody else, then those cards are revealed, then they move, then the libraries are shuffled.
I would venture at least that, on a practical basis, the number of cards found has to become discernible once they've been found.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
So each player in turn order decides on wether to search or not and the amount of cards to search for before the next player makes these choices? No player searches before everyone made their choices? Do they even choose an amount of cards to search for, seeing as X was set by the spell's caster and a player can deliberately fail to find cards with a stated quality when searching a hidden zone?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
The first action to be done simultaneously, searching a library, involves "look[ing] at all cards in" that library and "find[ing] ... card[s]" called for by the spell or ability (C.R. 701.18a). However, in this case, since "creature cards" are to be searched for, a player "isn't required to find some or all of" the quantity of cards called for (C.R. 701.18b). Because, in this case, a player isn't so required, and because finding cards is part of the definition of searching, that player will necessarily decide whether to find cards as he or she searches, so that this is also a "choic[e] required" within the meaning of C.R. 101.4.
EDIT (Jul. 13, 2018): Some rules were renumbered with Dominaria.
In a 2-player game between player A and player B, it's A's turn and he casts Weird Harvest with X=2, going though all the nessessary steps of casting the spell. Everyone passes and the spell resolves. Now this is what happens as I undertand it:
1) A chooses wether to search or not and how many cards he'll search for. He can choose between 0, 1, or 2. He chooses to do the search and chooses to search for 2 cards.
2) B chooses wether to search or not and how many cards he'll search for. He can choose between 0, 1, or 2. He knows, that A will search, and that he'll search for 2 cards. He, too, chooses to search and to search for 2 cards.
3) Both players search their libraries simultaneously, but A has to choose all his cards first. So B knows wether A actually found 2 cards or if he abandoned his search after only finding 1 or 0, and B can take that into consideration while doing his own search. But B does not know what those cards are yet. Both players can only find as many cards as they chose to search for in steps 1) and 2), even if X is higher and would have allowed for more.
4) All chosen cards are revealed simultaneously, then put into their owners' hands.
5) Both libraries are shuffled simultaneously.
Is this how it plays out? Or did I make a mistake somewhere?
Edit:
Additional question:
Can a player choose to search for 0 cards, just to get a shuffle out of the Harvest?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
threetwo decisions:A-choosing whether to search or not
B-choosing a maximumC-picking a specific number of cards as search is performed
The rule is:
1) announce choices
2) perform actions
3) make subsequent choices
4) perform subsequent actions
...
Therefore, each player announces his/her intention whether to seacrh or not
, then each of those who will search announce a maximum number.Then searches are performed.
The number of cards actually found also is a choice: player B should know the number of cards found by A before finishing his/her search. IMHO.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Since no rule covers the question you ask, the answer is undefined, until a Wizard representative makes the call.
Edit: forgot a third exception: 119.8.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
EDIT (Jul. 13, 2018): Some rules were renumbered with Dominaria. Corrections.
EDIT (Aug. 9, 2018): Corrected rule citations.
This seems contrary to rule 101.4, which says, that a player makes all nessessary choices for the action, and then the other players in turn order do the same. Doesn't that mean, that choosing to search and choosing the amount of cards to search for are both done before the next player makes his choices?
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
(which answers your secondary question: YES, a player may search for zero card, since the only choice is to search or not)
( but what if the caster chooses X = 0??? )
That still changes nothing to the main situation: players have two decisions to make, whether to search or not, and which cards will actually be found.
The actual number of cards found is made as the search is performed. Still, this is a decision: player B should be allowed to know player A's choice before making his/hers.
There also is a practical reason why player B should know the number of cards A picked before ending his/her search: how is A supposed to hide the number of cards he/she picked?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
I would say that the choice to search can't be separated from actually finding the cards. Cutting up the effect that way is contrary to a natural language interpretation of the sentence, and to the commas-clauses rule of thumb. Reconfirm the language from 608.2e, but also regard 608.2d again - it refers to applying effects, not parsing a sentence. Searching for a card is an effect, one effect. It may analyze into two decisions from some point of view, but not according to the language of 608.2e, which tells us to regard "separate sentences or clauses."
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
101.4 however says that this is how it's to be done. If multiple players would take simultaneous actions requiring choices, any choices nessessary to actually take the action are made by all players in APNAP order before the actions are taken. Meaning, all players have to choose to search or not before anyone can start searching.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
before the Weird Harvest search happensif multiple players search at once with Weird Harvest (under C.R. 101.4) include at least whether each player will search, a number X or less chosen by each player, and whether each player will find fewer than the chosen number of cards (C.R. 701.18b). ("Cyphern" also cited the rulings for Veteran Explorer.)EDIT (Jul. 13, 2018): Correctness edit to conform to rule added with Core Set 2019.
EDIT (Feb. 19, 2020): Corrected citation to a rule that was renumbered since May 7, 2017.
I can agree with a round of each player choosing to exercise the "may" of the effect, but only one that reveals number if, and when, the library is actually searched. Even in the special rule for searching, which permits any qualified search of hidden locations to fail, CR 701.7b begins "If a player is searching a hidden zone...", so it's something done -when you actually search the library- (re: Ob Nixilis, Unshackled).
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
EDIT (Jul. 21): Correction on the meaning of the rule change for two-player games.
EDIT (Aug. 9): Add rule citation.
EDIT (Jan. 9, 2019): Further correctness edit.