I just played in a draft and was in disagreement with my opponent regarding double damage + trample.
He casts Insult // Injury from his hand. He attacks with a 6/6 with trample. I block with a 4/4 and a 2/3.
He insisted that it's effectively a 12/12 with trample and that 5 damage would go through to me (12 damage minus my 7 toughness). I was pretty sure that the he would assign (as an example) 4 damage to my 4/4 and 2 to my 2/3, which would then get doubled at the damage step to 8 and 4 respectively (i.e. no trample damage would go through because the damage is only being doubled as it's being dealt, which in this case was only to my two creatures, correct?).
Could someone please clarify who was correct? Thank you!
During the first strike combat damage step, the 6/6 assigns its 6 damage among the creatures blocking it. Assuming that's the combat damage assignment order, it can assign 4 damage to the 4/4 and 2 damage to the 2/3. You don't take effects that would increase or decrease the damage into account, so you cannot take the effect from Insult into account to determine if lethal damage has been assigned yet (ie you can't assign 2 damage to the 4/4, knowing that the damage will be doubled to 4. You still have to assign 4 damage to it). The 4/4 takes a total of 8 damage, and dies, and the 2/3 takes a total of 4 damage, and also dies. During the normal combat damage step, since the 6/6 has trample and is not currently blocked, it assigns all of its damage to the defending player, and they'll take 12 damage (6 damage doubled).
EDIT: Oops, for some reason, I thought there was double strike in there (probably saw the word 'double' in the title or something). Without double strike, it can only deal damage among the creatures blocking it (pretty much as described in the first strike combat damage step situation).
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
During the first strike combat damage step, the 6/6 assigns its 6 damage among the creatures blocking it. Assuming that's the combat damage assignment order, it can assign 4 damage to the 4/4 and 2 damage to the 2/3. You don't take effects that would increase or decrease the damage into account, so you cannot take the effect from Insult into account to determine if lethal damage has been assigned yet (ie you can't assign 2 damage to the 4/4, knowing that the damage will be doubled to 4. You still have to assign 4 damage to it). The 4/4 takes a total of 8 damage, and dies, and the 2/3 takes a total of 4 damage, and also dies. During the normal combat damage step, since the 6/6 has trample and is not currently blocked, it assigns all of its damage to the defending player, and they'll take 12 damage (6 damage doubled).
wouldn't that only be the case if the 6/6 had double strike as well? which in the case given it does not (or the OP does not mention that it does)
During the first strike combat damage step, the 6/6 assigns its 6 damage among the creatures blocking it. Assuming that's the combat damage assignment order, it can assign 4 damage to the 4/4 and 2 damage to the 2/3. You don't take effects that would increase or decrease the damage into account, so you cannot take the effect from Insult into account to determine if lethal damage has been assigned yet (ie you can't assign 2 damage to the 4/4, knowing that the damage will be doubled to 4. You still have to assign 4 damage to it). The 4/4 takes a total of 8 damage, and dies, and the 2/3 takes a total of 4 damage, and also dies. During the normal combat damage step, since the 6/6 has trample and is not currently blocked, it assigns all of its damage to the defending player, and they'll take 12 damage (6 damage doubled).
Thanks Natedogg, that more or less answers my question I guess.
To clarify, my opponent only had a 6/6 with trample, no double strike. The only "doubling" going on was from the "Insult" part of Insult // Injury which he cast before going to combat.
Assuming everything else you said is true, I assume we would just have a normal combat step whereby my opponent would assign 4 to the 4/4, and 2 to the 2/3, ultimately dealing 8 and 4 respectively once damage happens and all damage altering effects are taken into account? No trample onto me, right?
wouldn't that only be the case if the 6/6 had double strike as well? which in the case given it does not (or the OP does not mention that it does)
Medail, you understood me correct. Just a 6/6 with trample, no double strike.
To clarify, my opponent only had a 6/6 with trample, no double strike. The only "doubling" going on was from the "Insult" part of Insult // Injury which he cast before going to combat.
Assuming everything else you said is true, I assume we would just have a normal combat step whereby my opponent would assign 4 to the 4/4, and 2 to the 2/3, ultimately dealing 8 and 4 respectively once damage happens and all damage altering effects are taken into account? No trample onto me, right?
Insult doesn't change how combat damage is assigned (as trample does [C.R. 702.19]); effects that would change the amount of damage a creature would deal, such as that of Insult, don't change the amount of combat damage creatures assign (C.R. 510.1c-d apply generally and C.R. 702.19b applies to trample). Therefore, the creatures assign combat damage the same way as though Insult hadn't resolved: The attacking creature can't assign combat damage to you since it wouldn't assign lethal damage to both of its blockers (assuming no damage is marked on any creatures) (C.R. 702.19b). However, because the attacker has trample, its controller "need not assign lethal damage" to those blockers (but "in that case[,] ... can't assign any damage" to the player or planeswalker the attacker is attacking) (C.R. 702.19b), so that that player can arguably assign less than lethal combat damage to the blockers (compare with C.R. 510.1c, the general rule). And when the combat damage is dealt (C.R. 510.2), the damage dealt by the attacker will be doubled (so that, for example, if the 2/3 creature is assigned 2 combat damage, it will be dealt 4 combat damage instead due to Insult's effect)--any damage beyond that required to make it lethal damage isn't dealt instead to you or anything else, because no effect or rule in this scenario, not even trample, allows it to be (review C.R. 702.19, in particular).
EDIT: Use uncontroversial example in last sentence after comment 7 was posted.
EDIT: Edited after comment 8 was posted.
EDIT (Mar. 7): Clarification.
EDIT (Mar. 15, Apr. 16; Dec. 15, 2018): Correctness edit.
To clarify, my opponent only had a 6/6 with trample, no double strike. The only "doubling" going on was from the "Insult" part of Insult // Injury which he cast before going to combat.
Assuming everything else you said is true, I assume we would just have a normal combat step whereby my opponent would assign 4 to the 4/4, and 2 to the 2/3, ultimately dealing 8 and 4 respectively once damage happens and all damage altering effects are taken into account? No trample onto me, right?
Insult doesn't change how creatures assign combat damage (as trample does [C.R. 702.19]); effects that would change the amount of damage a creature would deal, such as that of Insult, don't change the amount of combat damage they assign (C.R. 510.1c-d apply generally and C.R. 702.19b applies to trample). Therefore, the creatures assign combat damage the same way as though Insult hadn't resolved: The attacking creature can't assign combat damage to you since it wouldn't assign lethal damage to both of its blockers (C.R. 702.19b). However, because the attacker has trample, its controller can assign less than lethal combat damage to the blockers (under C.R. 702.19b, that player "need not assign lethal damage" to those blockers, but then "can't assign any damage" to defending player or planeswalker; compare with C.R. 510.1c, the general rule). And when the combat damage is dealt (C.R. 510.2), the damage dealt by the attacker will be doubled (so that, for example, even if the 4/4 creature, is assigned 3 combat damage, it will be dealt 6 combat damage instead due to Insult's effect)--any damage beyond that required to make it lethal damage isn't dealt instead to you or anything else, because no effect or rule in this scenario, not even trample, allows it to be (review C.R. 702.19, in particular).
Trample does not let you ignore the damage assignment order. So if the 4/4 is first in line, then it has to be assigned 4 or more damage. The 2/3 as second in line would have to be assigned any left over damage up to its toughness before trampling over becomes possible. The part of the rule saying "The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures ..." is only clarifying, that you don't have to assign lethal damage to each blocker even if you could, and that you then cannot trample over to the player/planeswalker. But the damage assignment order still stands, even with trample you to abide to it. A blocker can only be assigned combat damage, if all blockers before it in the line have already been assigned lethal damage.
Trample does not let you ignore the damage assignment order. So if the 4/4 is first in line, then it has to be assigned 4 or more damage. The 2/3 as second in line would have to be assigned any left over damage up to its toughness before trampling over becomes possible. The part of the rule saying "The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures ..." is only clarifying, that you don't have to assign lethal damage to each blocker even if you could, and that you then cannot trample over to the player/planeswalker. But the damage assignment order still stands, even with trample you to abide to it. A blocker can only be assigned combat damage, if all blockers before it in the line have already been assigned lethal damage.
C.R. 510.1c says "However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage" (see also C.R. 510.1d, which contains a similar sentence for blocked creatures), but C.R. 702.19b doesn't include a similar sentence. Therefore, as a consequence of a less than ideal choice of words -- especially "need not assign lethal damage" -- the sentence where the cited part of C.R. 702.19b appears can arguably be interpreted as meaning that a creature with trample can assign less than lethal combat damage to a blocking creature, meaning that arguably, the following combat damage assignments are possible in the scenario given in comment 1 (assuming the damage assignment order is 4/4 creature then 2/3 creature, and neither creature has damage marked on it):
0 damage to the 4/4 creature and 6 damage to the 2/3 creature.
0 damage to the 4/4 creature and 3 damage to the 2/3 creature.
3 damage to the 4/4 creature and 3 damage to the 2/3 creature.
3 damage to the 4/4 creature and 3 damage to the 2/3 creature.
4 damage to the 4/4 creature and 1 damage to the 2/3 creature.
5 damage to the 4/4 creature.
Those damage assignments would arguably be possible in addition to the following damage assignments, which would unquestionably be permitted under C.R. 702.19b (as they also are under C.R. 510.1c).
5 damage to the 4/4 creature and 1 damage to the 2/3 creature.
6 damage to the 4/4 creature.
4 damage to the 4/4 creature and 2 damage to the 2/3 creature.
Compare the rules for trample with the rules for banding. The later explicitly state (702.21j), that the combat damage assignment described is an exception to 510.1c, and what is being described is excatly the kind of combat damage distribution you claim is possible with trample. But there is no such statement in the rules for trample. I agree though, that 702.19b is somewhat ambiguous in that regard. At least, it should include an example for this kind of scenario.
I just played in a draft and was in disagreement with my opponent regarding double damage + trample.
He casts Insult // Injury from his hand. He attacks with a 6/6 with trample. I block with a 4/4 and a 2/3.
He insisted that it's effectively a 12/12 with trample and that 5 damage would go through to me (12 damage minus my 7 toughness). I was pretty sure that the he would assign (as an example) 4 damage to my 4/4 and 2 to my 2/3, which would then get doubled at the damage step to 8 and 4 respectively (i.e. no trample damage would go through because the damage is only being doubled as it's being dealt, which in this case was only to my two creatures, correct?).
Could someone please clarify who was correct? Thank you!
EDIT: Oops, for some reason, I thought there was double strike in there (probably saw the word 'double' in the title or something). Without double strike, it can only deal damage among the creatures blocking it (pretty much as described in the first strike combat damage step situation).
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
wouldn't that only be the case if the 6/6 had double strike as well? which in the case given it does not (or the OP does not mention that it does)
To clarify, my opponent only had a 6/6 with trample, no double strike. The only "doubling" going on was from the "Insult" part of Insult // Injury which he cast before going to combat.
Assuming everything else you said is true, I assume we would just have a normal combat step whereby my opponent would assign 4 to the 4/4, and 2 to the 2/3, ultimately dealing 8 and 4 respectively once damage happens and all damage altering effects are taken into account? No trample onto me, right? Medail, you understood me correct. Just a 6/6 with trample, no double strike.
EDIT: Use uncontroversial example in last sentence after comment 7 was posted.
EDIT: Edited after comment 8 was posted.
EDIT (Mar. 7): Clarification.
EDIT (Mar. 15, Apr. 16; Dec. 15, 2018): Correctness edit.
Trample does not let you ignore the damage assignment order. So if the 4/4 is first in line, then it has to be assigned 4 or more damage. The 2/3 as second in line would have to be assigned any left over damage up to its toughness before trampling over becomes possible. The part of the rule saying "The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures ..." is only clarifying, that you don't have to assign lethal damage to each blocker even if you could, and that you then cannot trample over to the player/planeswalker. But the damage assignment order still stands, even with trample you to abide to it. A blocker can only be assigned combat damage, if all blockers before it in the line have already been assigned lethal damage.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)